OAAU Founding Rally (June 28, 1964)

Asalaam Alaikum, Mr. Moderator, our distinguished guests, brothers and sisters, our friends and our enemies, everybody is here.

As many of you know, last March when it was announced that I was no longer in the Black Muslim movement, it was pointed out that it was my intention to work among the 22 million non-Muslim Afro-Americans and to try and form some type of organization, or create a situation where the young people, our young people, the students and others, could study the problems of our people for a period of time and then come up with a new analysis and give us some new ideas and some new suggestions as to how to approach a problem that too many other people have been playing around with for too long. And that we would have some kind of meeting and determine at a later date whether to form a black nationalist party or a black nationalist army.

There have been many of our people across the country from all walks of life who have taken it upon themselves to try and pool their ideas and to come up with some kind of solution to the problem that confronts all of our people. And tonight we are here to try and get an understanding of what it is they’ve come up with.

Also, recently when I was blessed to make a trip, or religious pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca where I met many people from all over the world, plus spent many weeks in Africa trying to broaden my own scope and get more of an open mind to look at the problem as it actually is, one of the things that I realized, and I realized this even before going over there, was that our African brothers have gained their independence faster than you and I here in America have. They’ve also gained recognition and respect as human beings much faster than you and I.

Just ten years ago on the African continent, our people were colonized. They were suffering all forms of colonization, oppression, exploitation, degradation, humiliation, discrimination, and every other kind of -ation. And in a short time, they have gained more independence, more recognition, more respect as human beings than you and I have. And you and I live in a country which is supposed to be the citadel of education, freedom, justice, democracy, and all of those other pretty-sounding words.

So it was our intention to try and find out what it was our African brothers were doing to get results, so that you and I could study what they had done and perhaps gain from that study or benefit from their experiences. And my traveling over there was designed to help to find out how.

One of the first things that the independent African nations did was to form an organization called the Organization of African Unity. This organization consists of all independent African states who have reached the agreement to submerge all differences and combine their efforts toward eliminating from the continent of Africa colonialism and all vestiges of oppression and exploitation being suffered by African people. Those who formed the organization of African states have differences. They represent probably every segment, every type of thinking. You have some leaders that are considered Uncle Toms, some leaders who are considered very militant. But even the militant African leaders were able to sit down at the same table with African leaders whom they considered to be Toms, or Tshombes, or that type of character. They forgot their differences for the sole purpose of bringing benefits to the whole. And whenever you find people who can’t forget their differences, then they’re more interested in their personal aims and objectives than they are in the conditions of the whole.

Well, the African leaders showed their maturity by doing what the American white man said couldn’t be done. Because if you recall when it was mentioned that these African states were going to meet in Addis Ababa, all of the Western press began to spread the propaganda that they didn’t have enough in common to come together and to sit down together. Why, they had Nkrumah there, one of the most militant of the African leaders, and they had Adoula from the Congo. They had Nyerere there, they had Ben Bella there, they had Nasser there, they had Sekou Toure, they had Obote; they had Kenyatta, guess Kenyatta was there, I can’t remember whether Kenya was independent at that time, but I think he was there.

Everyone was there and despite their differences, they were able to sit down and form what was known as the Organization of African Unity, which has formed a coalition and is working in conjunction with each other to fight a common enemy.

Once we saw what they were able to do, we determined to try and do the same thing here in America among Afro-Americans who have been divided by our enemies. So we have formed an organization known as the Organization of Afro-American Unity which has the same aim and objective: to fight whoever gets in our way, to bring about the complete independence of people of African descent here in the Western Hemisphere, and first here in the United States, and bring about the freedom of these people by any means necessary.

That’s our motto. We want freedom by any means necessary. We want justice by any means necessary. We want equality by any means necessary. We don’t feel that in 1964, living in a country that is supposedly based upon freedom, and supposedly the leader of the free world, we don’t think that we should have to sit around and wait for some segregationist congressmen and senators and a President from Texas in Washington, D.C., to make up their minds that our people are due now some degree of civil rights. No, we want it now or we don’t think anybody should have it.

The purpose of our organization is to start right here in Harlem, which has the largest concentration of people of African descent that exists anywhere on this earth. There are more Africans in Harlem than exist in any city on the African continent. Because that’s what you and I are, Africans. You catch any white man off guard in here right now, you catch him off guard and ask him what he is, he doesn’t say he’s an American. He either tells you he’s Irish, or he’s Italian, or he’s German, if you catch him off guard and he doesn’t know what you’re up to. And even though he was born here, he’ll tell you he’s Italian. Well, if he’s Italian, you and I are African even though we were born here.

So we start in New York City first. We start in Harlem and by Harlem we mean Bedford-Stuyvesant—any place in this area where you and I live, that’s Harlem—with the intention of spreading throughout the state, and from the state throughout the country, and from the country throughout the Western Hemisphere. Because when we say Afro-American, we include everyone in the Western Hemisphere of African descent. South America is America. Central America is America. South America has many people in it of African descent. And everyone in South America of African descent is an Afro-American. Everyone in the Caribbean, whether it’s the West Indies or Cuba or Mexico, if they have African blood, they are Afro-Americans. If they’re in Canada and they have African blood, they’re Afro-Americans. If they’re in Alaska, though they might call themselves Eskimos, if they have African blood, they’re Afro-Americans.

So the purpose of the Organization of Afro-American Unity is to unite everyone in the Western Hemisphere of African descent into one united force. And then, once we are united among ourselves in the Western Hemisphere, we will unite with our brothers on the motherland, on the continent of Africa. So to get right with it, I would like to read you the “Basic Aims and Objectives of the Organization of Afro-American Unity, started here in New York, June, 1964:

The Organization of Afro-American Unity, organized and structured by a cross section of the Afro-American people living in the United States of America, has been patterned after the letter and spirit of the Organization of African Unity which was established at Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, in May of 1963.

We, the members of the Organization of Afro- Arnerican Unity, gathered together in Harlem, New York:

Convinced that it is the inalienable right of all our people to control our own destiny;
 Conscious of the fact that freedom, equality, justice and dignity are central objectives for the achievement of the legitimate aspirations of the people of African descent here in the Western Hemisphere, we will endeavor to build a bridge of understanding and create the basis for Afro-American unity;

Conscious of our responsibility to harness the natural and human resources of our people for their total advancement in all spheres of human endeavor;

Inspired by our common determination to promote understanding among our people and cooperation in all matters pertaining to their survival and advancement, we will support the aspirations of our people for brotherhood and solidarity in a larger unity transcending all organizational differences;

Convinced that, in order to translate this determination into a dynamic force in the cause of human progress conditions of peace and security must be established and maintained;

And by conditions of peace and security, we mean we have to eliminate the barking of the police dogs, we have to eliminate the police clubs, we have to eliminate the water hoses, we have to eliminate all of these things that have become so characteristic of the American so-called dream.

These have to be eliminated. Then we will be living in a condition of peace and security. We can never have peace and security as long as one black man in this country is being bitten by a police dog. No one in the country has peace and security.

Dedicated to the unification of all people of African descent in this hemisphere and to the utilization of that unity to bring into being the organizational structure that will project the black people’s contributions to the world;

Persuaded that the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights are the principles in which we believe and that these documents if put into practice represent the essence of mankind’s hopes and good intentions;
Desirous that all Afro-American people and organizations should henceforth unite so that the welfare and well-being of our people will be assured;

We are resolved to reinforce the common bond of purpose between our people by submerging all of our differences and establishing a nonsectarian, constructive program for human rights;
We hereby present this charter.

I. Establishment.

The Organization of Afro-Arnerican Unity shall include all people of African descent in the Western Hemisphere, as well as our brothers and sisters on the African continent.

Which means anyone of African descent, with African blood, can become a member of the Organization of Afro-American Unity and also any one of our brothers and sisters from the African continent. Because not only it is an organization of Afro-American unity meaning that we are trying to unite our people in the West but it’s an organization of Afro-American unity in the sense that we want to unite all of our people who are in North America, South America, and Central America with our people on the African continent. We must unite together in order to go forward together. Africa will not go forward any faster than we will and we will not go forward any faster than Africa will. We have one destiny and we’ve had one past.

In essence what it is saying is instead of you and me running around here seeking allies in our struggle for freedom in the Irish neighborhood or the Jewish neighborhood or the Italian neighborhood, we need to seek some allies among people who look something like we do. It’s time now for you and me to stop running away from the wolf right into the arms of the fox, looking for some kind of help. That’s a drag.

II. Self Defense.

Since self-preservation is the first law of nature, we assert the Afro-American’s right to self-defense.

The Constitution of the United States of America clearly affirms the right of every American citizen to bear arms. And as Americans, we will not give up a single right guaranteed under the Constitution. The history of unpunished violence against our people clearly indicates that we must be prepared to defend ourselves or we will continue to be a defenseless people at the mercy of a ruthless and violent racist mob.

We assert that in those areas where the government is either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property of our people, that our people are within our rights to protect themselves by whatever means necessary.

I repeat, because to me this is the most important thing you need to know. I already know it.

We assert that in those areas where the government is either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property of our people, that our people are within our rights to protect themselves by whatever means necessary.

This is the thing you need to spread the word about among our people wherever you go. Never let them be brainwashed into thinking that whenever they take steps to see that they’re in a position to defend themselves that they’re being unlawful. The only time you’re being unlawful is when you break the law. It’s lawful to have something to defend yourself. Why, I heard President Johnson either today or yesterday, I guess it was today, talking about how quick this country would go to war to defend itself. Why, what kind of a fool do you look like, living in a country that will go to war at the drop of a hat to defend itself, and here you’ve got to stand up in the face of vicious police dogs and blue-eyed crackers waiting for somebody to tell you what to do to defend yourself!


Those days are over, they’re gone, that’s yesterday. The time for you and me to allow ourselves to be brutalized nonviolently is passe. Be nonviolent only with those who are nonviolent to you. And when you can bring me a nonviolent racist, bring me a nonviolent segregationist, then I’ll get nonviolent. But don’t teach me to be nonviolent until you teach some of those crackers to be nonviolent. You’ve never seen a nonviolent cracker. It’s hard for a racist to be nonviolent. It’s hard for anyone intelligent to be nonviolent. Everything in the universe does something when you start playing with his life, except the American Negro. He lays down and says, “Beat me, daddy.”

So it says here: “A man with a rifle or a club can only be stopped by a person who defends himself with a rifle or a club.” That’s equality. If you have a dog, I must have a dog. If you have a rifle, I must have a rifle. If you have a club, I must have a club. This is equality. If the United States government doesn’t want you and me to get rifles, then take the rifles away from those racists. If they don’t want you and me to use clubs, take the clubs away from the racists. lf they don’t want you and me to get violent, then stop the racists from being violent. Don’t teach us nonviolence while those crackers are violent. Those days are over.

Tactics based solely on morality can only succeed when you are dealing with people who are moral or a system that is moral. A man or system which oppresses a man because of his color is not moral. It is the duty of every Afro-American person and every Afro-American community throughout this country to protect its people against mass murderers, against bombers, against Iynchers, against floggers, against brutalizers and against exploiters.

I might say right here that instead of the various black groups declaring war on each other, showing how militant they can be cracking each other’s heads, let them go down South and crack some of those crackers’ heads. Any group of people in this country that has a record of having been attacked by racists and there’s no record where they have ever given the signal to take the heads of some of those racists why, they are insane giving the signal to take the heads of some of their ex-brothers. Or brother X’s, I don’t know how you put that.

III. Education.

Education is an important element in the struggle for human rights. It is the means to help our children and our people rediscover their identity and thereby increase their self-respect. Education is our passport to the future, for tomorrow belongs only to the people who prepare for it today.

And I must point out right there, when I was in Africa, I met no African who wasn’t standing with open arms to embrace any Afro-American who returned to the African continent. But one of the things that all of them have said is that every one of our people in this country should take advantage of every type of educational opportunity available before you even think about talking about the future. If you’re surrounded by schools, go to that school.

Our children are being criminally shortchanged in the public school system of America. The Afro-American schools are the poorest-run schools in the city of New York. Principals and teachers fail to understand the nature of the problems with which they work and as a result they cannot do the job of teaching our children.

They don’t understand us, nor do they understand our problems; they don’t. The textbooks tell our children nothing about the great contributions of Afro-Americans to the growth and development of this country.

And they don’t. When we send our children to school in this country they learn nothing about us other than that we used to be cotton pickers. Every little child going to school thinks his grandfather was a cotton picker. Why, your grandfather was Nat Turner; your grandfather was Toussaint L’Ouverture; your grandfather was Hannibal. Your grandfather was some of the greatest black people who walked on this earth. It was your grandfather’s hands who forged civilization and it was your grandmother’s hands who rocked the cradle of civilization But the textbooks tell our children nothing about the great contributions of Afro-Americans to the growth and development of this country.

The Board of Education’s integration plan is expensive and unworkable; and the organization of principals and supervisors in New York City’s school system has refused to support the Board’s plan to integrate the schools, thus dooming it to failure before it even starts.

The Board of Education of this city has said that even with its plan there are 10 percent of the schools in Harlem and the Bedford-Stuyvesant community in Brooklyn that they cannot improve. So what are we to do ?

This means that the Organization of Afro-Arnerican Unity must make the Afro-American community a more potent force for educational self-improvement.

A first step in the program to end the existing system of racist education is to demand that the 10 percent of the schools the Board of Education will not include in its plan be turned over to and run by the Afro-American community itself.

Since they say that they can’t improve these schools, why should you and I who live in the community, let these fools continue to run and produce this low standard of education? So, let them turn those schools over to us. Since they say they can’t handle them, nor can they correct them, let us take a whack at it.

What do we want? We want Afro-American principals to head these schools. We want Afro-American teachers in these schools. Meaning we want black principals and black teachers with some textbooks about black people.

We want textbooks written by Afro-Americans that are acceptable to our people before they can be used in these schools.

The Organization of Afro-American Unity will select and recommend people to serve on local school boards where school policy is made and passed on to the Board of Education. And this is very important.

Through these steps we will make the 10 percent of the schools that we take over educational showplaces that will attract the attention of people from all over the nation. Instead of them being schools turning out pupils whose academic diet is not complete, we can turn them into examples of what we can do ourselves once given an opportunity.

If these proposals are not met, we will ask Afro-American parents to keep their children out of the present inferior schools they attend. And when these schools in our neighborhood are controlled by Afro-Americans, we will then return our children to them.

The Organization of Afro-American Unity recognizes the tremendous importance of the complete involvement of Afro-American parents in every phase of school life. The Afro-American parent must be willing and able to go into the schools and see that the job of educating our children is done properly.

This whole thing about putting all of the blame on the teacher is out the window. The parent at home has just as much responsibility to see that what’s going on in that school is up to par as the teacher in their schools. So it is our intention not only to devise an education program for the children, but one also for the parents to make them aware of their responsibility where education is concerned in regard to their children.

We call on all Afro-Americans around the nation to be aware that the conditions that exist in the New York City public school system are as deplorable in their cities as they are here. We must unite our efforts and spread our program of self-improvement through education to every Afro-American community in America.

We must establish all over the country schools of our own to train our own children to become scientists, to become mathematicians. We must realize the need for adult education and for job retraining programs that will emphasize a changing society in which automation plays the key role. We intend to use the tools of education to help raise our people to an unprecedented level of excellence and self-respect through their own efforts.

IV. Politics and Economics.

And the two are almost inseparable, because the politician is depending on some money; yes, that’s what he’s depending on.

Basically, there are two kinds of power that count in America: economic power and political power, with social power being derived from those two. In order for the Afro-Americans to control their destiny, they must be able to control and affect the decisions which control their destiny: economic, political, and social. This can only be done through organization. 
The Organization of Afro-American Unity will organize the Afro-American community block by block to make the community aware of its power and its potential; we will start immediately a voter registration drive to make every unregistered voter in the Afro-American community an independent voter.

We won’t organize any black man to be a Democrat or a Republican because both of them have sold us out. Both of them have sold us out; both parties have sold us out. Both parties are racist, and the Democratic Party is more racist than the Republican Party. I can prove it. All you’ve got to do is name everybody who’s running the government in Washington, D.C., right now. He’s a Democrat and he’s from either Georgia, Alabama, Texas, Mississippi, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, from one of those cracker states. And they’ve got more power than any white man in the North has. In fact, the President is from a cracker state. What’s he talking about? Texas is a cracker state, in fact, they’ll hang you quicker in Texas than they will in Mississippi. Don’t you ever think that just because a cracker becomes president he ceases being a cracker. He was a cracker before he became president and he’s a cracker while he’s president. I’m going to tell it like it is. I hope you can take it like it is. We propose to support and organize political clubs, to run independent candidates for office, and to support any Afro-American already in office who answers to and is responsible to the Afro-American community.

We don’t support any black man who is controlled by the white power structure. We will start not only a voter registration drive, but a voter education drive to let our people have an understanding of the science of politics so they will be able to see what part the politician plays in the scheme of things; so they will be able to understand when the politician is doing his job and when he is not doing his job. And any time the politician is not doing his job, we remove him whether he’s white, black, green, blue, yellow or whatever other color they might invent.

The economic exploitation in the Afro-American community is the most vicious form practiced on any people in America. In fact, it is the most vicious practiced on any people on this earth. No one is exploited economically as thoroughly as you and I, because in most countries where people are exploited they know it. You and I are in this country being exploited and sometimes we don’t know it.

Twice as much rent is paid for rat-infested, roach-crawling, rotting tenements. This is true. It costs us more to live in Harlem than it costs them to live on Park Avenue. Do you know that the rent is higher on Park Avenue in Harlem than it is on Park Avenue downtown? And in Harlem you have everything else in that apartment with you—roaches, rats, cats, dogs, and some other outsiders—disguised as landlords.

The Afro-American pays more for food, pays more for clothing, pays more for insurance than anybody else. And we do. It costs you and me more for insurance than it does the white man in the Bronx or somewhere else. It costs you and me more for food than it does them. It costs you and me more to live in America than it does anybody else, and yet we make the greatest contribution.

You tell me what kind of country this is. Why should we do the dirtiest jobs for the lowest pay? Why should we do the hardest work for the lowest pay? What should we pay the most money for the worst kind of food and the most money for the worst kind of place to live in? I’m telling you we do it because we live in one of the rottenest countries that has ever existed on this earth. It’s the system that is rotten; we have a rotten system. It’s a system of exploitation, a political and economic system of exploitation, of outright humiliation, degradation, discrimination—all of the negative things that you can run into, you have run into under this system that disguises itself as a democracy, disguises itself as a democracy. And the things that they practice against you and me are worse than some of the things that they practiced in Germany against the Jews. Worse than some of the things that the Jews ran into. And you run around here getting ready to get drafted and go someplace and defend it. Someone needs to crack you upside your head.

The Organization of Afro-American Unity will wage an unrelenting struggle against these evils in our community. There shall be organizers to work with our people to solve these problems, and start a housing self-improvement program.

Instead of waiting for the white man to come and straighten out our neighborhood, we’ll straighten it out ourselves. This is where you make your mistake. An outsider can’t clean up your house as well as you can. An outsider can’t take care of your children as well as you can. An outsider can’t look after your needs as well as you can. And an outsider can’t understand your problems as well as you can. Yet you’re looking for an outsider to do it. We will do it or it will never get done.

“We propose to support rent strikes. Yes, not little, small rent strikes in one block We’ll make Harlem a rent strike. We’ll get every black man in this city...the Organization of Afro-American Unity won’t stop until there’s not a black man in the city not on strike. Nobody will pay any rent. The whole city will come to a halt. And they can’t put all of us in jail because they’ve already got the jails full of us.

Concerning our social needs—I hope I’m not frightening anyone. I should stop right here and tell you if you’re the type of person who frights, who gets scared, you should never come around us. Because we’ll scare you to death. And you don’t have far to go because you’re half dead already. Economically you’re dead—dead broke. Just got paid yesterday and dead broke right now.

V. Social.

This organization is responsible only to the Afro-American people and the Afro-American community.

This organization is not responsible to anybody but us. We don’t have to ask the man downtown can we demonstrate. We don’t have to ask the man downtown what tactics we can use to demonstrate our resentment against his criminal abuse. We don’t have to ask his consent; we don’t have to ask his endorsement; we don’t have to ask his permission. Anytime we know that an unjust condition exists and it is illegal and unjust, we will strike at it by any means necessary. And strike also at whatever and whoever gets in the way.

This organization is responsible only to the Afro-American people and community and will function only with their support, both financially and numerically. We believe that our communities must be the sources of their own strength politically, economically, intellectually, and culturally in the struggle for human rights and human dignity.

The community must reinforce its moral responsibility to rid itself of the effects of years of exploitation, neglect, and apathy, and wage an unrelenting struggle against police brutality.
Yes, there are some good policemen and some bad policemen. Usually we get the bad ones. With all the police in Harlem, there is too much crime, too much drug addiction, too much alcoholism, too much prostitution, too much gambling.

So it makes us suspicious about the motives of Commissioner Murphy when he sends all these policemen up here. We begin to think that they are just his errand boys, whose job it is to pick up the graft and take it back downtown to Murphy. Anytime there’s a police commissioner who finds it necessary to increase the strength numerically of the policemen in Harlem and, at the same time, we don’t see any sign of a decrease in crime, why, I think we’re justified in suspecting his motives. He can’t be sending them up here to fight crime, because crime is on the increase. The more cops we have, the more crime we have. We begin to think that they bring some of the crime with them.

So our purpose is to organize the community so that we ourselves—since the police can’t eliminate the drug traffic, we have to eliminate it. Since the police can’t eliminate organized gambling, we have to eliminate it. Since the police can’t eliminate organized prostitution and all of these evils that are destroying the moral fiber of our community, it is up to you and me to eliminate these evils ourselves. But in many instances, when you unite in this country or in this city to fight organized crime, you’ll find yourselves fighting the police department itself because they are involved in the organized crime. Wherever you have organized crime, that type of crime cannot exist other than with the consent of the police, the knowledge of the police and the cooperation of the police.

You’ll agree that you can’t run a number in your neighborhood without the police knowing it. A prostitute can’t turn a trick on the block without the police knowing it. A man can’t push drugs anywhere along the avenue without the police knowing it. And they pay the police off so that they will not get arrested. I know what I’m talking about—I used to be out there. And I know you can’t hustle out there without police setting you up. You have to pay them off.

The police are all right. I say there’s some good ones and some bad ones. But they usually send the bad ones to Harlem. Since these bad police have come to Harlem and have not decreased the high rate of crime, I tell you brothers and sisters it is time for you and me to organize and eliminate these evils ourselves, or we’ll be out of the world backwards before we even know where the world was.

Drug addiction turns your little sister into a prostitute before she gets into her teens; makes a criminal out of your little brother before he gets in his teens—drug addiction and alcoholism. And if you and I aren’t men enough to get at the root of these things, then we don’t even have the right to walk around here complaining about it in any form whatsoever. The police will not eliminate it.

Our community must reinforce its moral responsibility to rid itself of the effects of years of exploitation, neglect, and apathy, and wage an unrelenting struggle against police brutality.

Where this police brutality also comes in—the new law that they just passed, the no-knock law, the stop-and-frisk law, that’s an anti-Negro law. That’s a law that was passed and signed by Rockefeller.

Rockefeller with his old smile always he has a greasy smile on his face and he’s shaking hands with Negroes, like he’s the Negro’s pappy or granddaddy or great-uncle. Yet when it comes to passing a law that is worse than any law that they had in Nazi Germany, why, Rockefeller couldn’t wait till he got his signature on it. And the only thing this law is designed to do is make legal what they’ve been doing all the time.

They’ve passed a law that gives them the right to knock down your door without even knocking on it. Knock it down and come on in and bust your head and frame you up under the disguise that they suspect you of something. Why, brothers, they didn’t have laws that bad in Nazi Germany. And it was passed for you and me, it’s an anti-Negro law, because you’ve got an anti-Negro governor sitting up there in Albany—I started to say Albany, Georgia—in Albany, New York. Not too much difference. Not too much difference between Albany, New York and Albany, Georgia. And there’s not too much difference between the government that’s in Albany, New York and the government in Albany, Georgia.

The Afro-American community must accept the responsibility for regaining our people who have lost their place in society. We must declare an all-out war on organized crime in our community; a vice that is controlled by policemen who accept bribes and graft must be exposed. We must establish a clinic, whereby one can get aid and cure for drug addiction.

This is absolutely necessary. When a person is a drug addict, he’s not the criminal; he’s a victim of the criminal. The criminal is the man downtown who brings this drug into the country. Negroes can’t bring drugs into this country. You don’t have any boats. You don’t have any airplanes. You don’t have any diplomatic immunity. It is not you who is responsible for bringing in drugs. You’re just a little tool that is used by the man downtown. The man that controls the drug traffic sits in city hall or he sits in the state house. Big shots who are respected, who function in high circles—those are the ones who control these things. And you and I will never strike at the root of it until we strike at the man downtown.

We must create meaningful creative, useful activities for those who were led astray down the avenues of vice.

The people of the Afro-American community must be prepared to help each other in all ways possible; we must establish a place where unwed mothers can get help and advice.

We must set up a guardian system that will help our youth who get into trouble. Too many of our children get into trouble accidentally. And once they get into trouble, because they have no one to look out for them, they’re put in some of these homes where others who are experienced at getting in trouble are. And immediately it’s a bad influence on them and they never have a chance to straighten out their lives. Too many of our children have their entire lives destroyed in this manner. It is up to you and me right now to form the type of organizations wherein we can look out for the needs of all of these young people who get into trouble, especially those who get into trouble for the first time, so that we can do something to steer them back on the right path before they go too far astray.

And we must provide constructive activities for our own children. We must set a good example for our children and must teach them to always be ready to accept the responsibilities that are necessary for building good communities and nations. We must teach them that their greatest responsibilities are to themselves, to their families and to their communities.

The Organization of Afro-American Unity believes that the Afro-American community must endeavor to do the major part of all charity work from within the community. Charity, however, does not mean that to which we are legally entitled in the form of government benefits. The Afro-American veteran must be made aware of all the benefits due to him and the procedure for obtaining them.

Many of our people have sacrificed their lives on the battlefront for this country. There are many government benefits that our people don’t even know about. Many of them are qualified to receive aid in all forms, but they don’t even know it. But we know this, so it is our duty, those of us who know it, to set up a system wherein our people who are not informed of what is coming to them, we inform them, we let them know how they can lay claim to everything that they’ve got coming to them from this government. And I mean you’ve got much coming to you. The veterans must be encouraged to go into business together, using GI loans and all other items that we have access to or have available to us.

Afro-Americans must unite and work together. We must take pride in the Afro-American community, for it is our home and it is our power the base of our power.

What we do here in regaining our self-respect, our manhood, our dignity and freedom helps all people everywhere who are also fighting against oppression.

Lastly, concerning culture and the cultural aspect of the Organization of Afro-American Unity. A race of people is like an individual man; until it uses its own talent, takes pride in its own history, expresses its own culture, affirms its own selfhood, it can never fulfill itself.

Our history and our culture were completely destroyed when we were forcibly brought to America in chains. And now it is important for us to know that our history did not begin with slavery. We came from Africa, a great continent, wherein live a proud and varied people, a land which is the new world and was the cradle of civilization. Our culture and our history are as old as man himself and yet we know almost nothing about it.

This is no accident. It is no accident that such a high state of culture existed in Africa and you and I know nothing about it. Why, the man knew that as long as you and I thought we were somebody, he could never treat us like we were nobody. So he had to invent a system that would strip us of everything about us that we could use to prove we were somebody. And once he had stripped us of all human characteristics—stripped us of our language, stripped us of our history, stripped us of all cultural knowledge, and brought us down to the level of an animal—he then began to treat us like an animal selling us from one plantation to another, selling us from one owner to another, breeding us like you breed cattle.

Why, brothers and sisters, when you wake up and find out what this man here has done to you and me, you won’t even wait for somebody to give the word. I’m not saying all of them are bad. There might be some good ones. But we don’t have time to look for them. Not nowadays.

We must recapture our heritage and our identity if we are ever to liberate ourselves from the bonds of white supremacy. We must launch a cultural revolution to un-brainwash an entire people.

A cultural revolution. Why, brothers, that’s a crazy revolution. When you tell this black man in America who he is, where he came from, what he had when he was there, he’ll look around and ask himself “Well what happened to it, who took it away from us and how did they do it?” Why, brothers, you’ll have some action just like that. When you let the black man in America know where he once was and what he once had, why, he only needs to look at himself now to realize something criminal was done to him to bring him down to the low condition that he’s in today.

Once he realizes what was done, how it was done, where it was done, when it was done, and who did it, that knowledge in itself will usher in your action program. And it will be by any means necessary. A man doesn’t know how to act until he realizes what he’s acting against. And you don’t realize what you’re acting against until you realize what they did to you. Too many of you don’t know what they did to you, and this is what makes you so quick to want to forget and forgive. No, brothers, when you see what has happened to you, you will never forget and you’ll never forgive. And, as I say, all of them might not be guilty. But most of them are. Most of them are.

Our cultural revolution must be the means of bringing us closer to our African brothers and sisters. It must begin in the community and be based on community participation. Afro-Americans will be free to create only when they can depend on the Afro-American community for support, and Afro-American artists must realize that they depend on the Afro-American community for inspiration.

Our artists—we have artists who are geniuses; they don’t have to act the Stepin Fetchit role. But as long as they’re looking for white support instead of black support, they’ve got to act like the old white supporter wants them to. When you and I begin to support the black artists, then the black artists can play that black role. As long as the black artist has to sing and dance to please the white man, he’ll be a clown, he’ll be clowning, just another clown. But when he can sing and dance to please black men, he sings a different song and he dances a different step. When we get together, we’ve got a step all our own. We have a step that nobody can do but us, because we have a reason for doing it that nobody can understand but us.

We must work toward the establishment of a cultural center in Harlem, which will include people of all ages and will conduct workshops in all of the arts, such as film, creative writing, painting, theater, music, and the entire spectrum of Afro-American history.

This cultural revolution will be the journey to our rediscovery of ourselves. History is a people’s memory, and without a memory man is demoted to the level of the lower animals.

When you have no knowledge of your history, you’re just another animal; in fact, you’re a Negro; something that’s nothing. The only black man on earth who is called a Negro is one who has no knowledge of his history. The only black man on earth who is called a Negro is one who doesn’t know where he came from. That’s the one in America. They don’t call Africans Negroes.

Why, I had a white man tell me the other day, “He’s not a Negro.” Here the man was black as night, and the white man told me, “He’s not a Negro, he’s an African. I said, Well listen to him. I knew he wasn’t, but I wanted to pull old whitey out, you know. But it shows you that they know this. You are Negro because you don’t know who you are, you don’t know what you are, you don’t know where you are, and you don’t know how you got here. But as soon as you wake up and find out the positive answer to all these things, you cease being a Negro. You become somebody.

Armed with the knowledge of our past, we can with confidence charter a course for our future. Culture is an indispensable weapon in the freedom struggle. We must take hold of it and forge the future with the past.

And to quote a passage from Then We Heard the Thunder by John Killens, it says: “He was a dedicated patriot: Dignity was his country, Manhood was his government, and Freedom was his land.” Old John Killens.

This is our aim. It’s rough, we have to smooth it up some. But we’re not trying to put something together that’s smooth. We don’t care how rough it is. We don’t care how tough it is. We don’t care how backward it may sound. In essence it only means we want one thing. We declare our right on this earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary.

I’m sorry I took so long. But before we go farther to tell you how you can join this organization, what your duties and responsibilities are, I want to turn you back into the hands of our master of ceremonies, Brother Les Edmonds.

[A collection is taken. Malcolm resumes speaking.]

One of the first steps we are going to become involved in as an Organization of Afro-American Unity will be to work with every leader and other organization in this country interested in a program designed to bring your and my problem before the United Nations. This is our first point of business. We feel that the problem of the black man in this country is beyond the ability of Uncle Sam to solve it. It’s beyond the ability of the United States government to solve it. The government itself isn’t capable of even hearing our problem, much less solving it. It’s not morally equipped to solve it.

So we must take it out of the hands of the United States government. And the only way we can do this is by internationalizing it and taking advantage of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, the United Nations Charter on Human Rights, and on that ground bring it into the UN before a world body wherein we can indict Uncle Sam for the continued criminal injustices that our people experience in this government.

To do this, we will have to work with many organizations and many people. We’ve already gotten promises of support from many different organizations in this country and from many different leaders in this country and from many different independent nations in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. So this is our first objective and all we need is your support. Can we get your support for this project?

For the past four weeks since my return from Africa, several persons from all walks of life in the Afro-American community have been meeting together, pooling knowledge and ideas and suggestions, forming a sort of a brain trust, for the purpose of getting a cross section of thinking, hopes, aspirations, likes and dislikes, to see what kind of organization we could put together that would in some way or other get the grassroots support, and what type of support it would need in order to be independent enough to take the type of action necessary to get results.

No organization that is financed by white support can ever be independent enough to fight the power structure with the type of tactics necessary to get real results. The only way we can fight the power structure, and it’s the power structure that we’re fighting—we’re not even fighting the Southern segregationists, we’re fighting a system that is run in Washington, D.C. That’s the seat of the system that we’re fighting. And in order to fight it, we have to be independent of it. And the only way we can be independent of it is to be independent of all support from the white community. It’s a battle that we have to wage ourselves.

Now, if white people want to help, they can help. But they can’t join. They can help in the white community, but they can’t join. We accept their help. They can form the White Friends of the Organization of Afro-American Unity and work in the white community on white people and change their attitude toward us. They don’t ever need to come among us and change our attitude. We’ve had enough of them working around us trying to change our attitude. That’s what got us all messed up.

So we don’t question their sincerity, we don’t question their motives, we don’t question their integrity. We just encourage them to use it somewhere else—in the white community. If they can use all of this sincerity in the white community to make the white community act better toward us, then we’ll say, “Those are good white folks.” But they don’t have to come around us, smiling at us and showing us all their teeth like white Uncle Toms, to try and make themselves acceptable to us. The White Friends of the Organization of Afro-American Unity, let them work in the white community.

The only way that this organization can be independent is if it is financed by you. It must be financed by you. Last week I told you that it would cost a dollar to join it. We sat down and thought about it all week long and said that charging you a dollar to join it would not make it an organization. We have set a membership joining fee, if that’s the way you express it, at $2.00. It costs more than that, I think to join the NAACP.

By the way, you know I attended the NAACP convention Friday in Washington, D.C., which was very enlightening. And I found the people very friendly. They’ve got the same kind of ideas you have. They act a little different, but they’ve got the same kind of ideas, because they’re catching the same hell we’re catching. I didn’t find any hostility at that convention at all. In fact, I sat and listened to them go through their business and learned a lot from it. And one of the things I learned is they only charge, I think $2.50 a year for membership, and that’s it. Well this is one of the reasons that they have problems. Because any time you have an organization that costs $2.50 a year to belong to, it means that that organization has to turn in another direction for funds. And this is what castrates it. Because as soon as the white liberals begin to support it, they tell it what to do and what not to do.

This is why Garvey was able to be more militant. Garvey didn’t ask them for help. He asked our people for help. And this is what we’re going to do. We’re going to try and follow his books.

So we’re going to have a $2.00 joining and ask every member to contribute a dollar a week Now, the NAACP gets $2.50 a year, that’s it. And it can’t ever go anywhere like that because it’s always got to be putting on some kind of drive for help and will always get its help from the wrong source. And then when they get that help, they’ll have to end up condemning all the enemies of their enemy in order to get some more help. No, we condemn our enemies, not the enemies of our enemies. We condemn our enemies.

So what we are going to ask you to do is, if you want to become a member of the Organization of Afro-American Unity, it will cost you $2.00. We are going to ask you to pay dues of a dollar a week. We will have an accountant, a bookkeeping system, which will keep the members up-to-date as to what has come in, what has been spent, and for what. Because the secret to success in any kind of business venture—and anything that you do that you mean business, you’d better do in a businesslike way—the secret to your success is keeping good records, good organized records.

Since today will be the first time that we are opening the books for membership, our next meeting will be next Sunday here. And we will then have a membership. And we’ll be able to announce at that time the officers of the Organization of Afro-American Unity. I’ll tell you the top officer is the chairman, and that’s the office I’m holding. I’m taking the responsibility of the chairman, which means I’m responsible for any mistakes that take place; anything that goes wrong, any failures, you can rest them right upon my shoulders. So next week the officers will be announced.

And this week I wanted to tell you the departments in this organization that, when you take out your membership, you can apply to work in. We have the department of education. The department of political action. For all of you who are interested in political action, we will have a department set up by brothers and sisters who are students of political science, whose function it will be to give us a breakdown of the community of New York City. First, how many assemblymen there are and how many of those assemblymen are black how many congressmen there are and how many of those congressmen are black. In fact, let me just read something real quick and I’ll show you why it’s so necessary. Just to give you an example.

There are 270,000 eligible voters in the twenty-first senatorial district. The twenty-first senatorial district is broken down into the eleventh, seventh, and thirteenth assembly districts. Each assembly district contains 90,000 eligible voters. In the eleventh assembly district, only 29,000 out of 90,000 eligible voters exercise their voting rights. In the seventh assembly district, only 36,000 out of the 90,000 eligible voters vote. Now, in a white assembly district with 90,000 eligible voters, 65,000 exercise their voting rights, showing you that in the white assembly districts more whites vote than blacks vote in the black assembly districts. There’s a reason for this. It is because our people aren’t politically aware of what we can get by becoming politically active.

So what we have to have is a program of political education to show them what they can get if they take political action that’s intelligently directed. Less than 25 percent of the eligible voters in Harlem vote in the primary election. Therefore, they have not the right to place the candidate of their choice in office, as only those who were in the primary can run in the general election. The following number of signatures are required to place a candidate to vote in the primaries: for assemblyman it must be 350 signatures; state senator, 750; countywide judgeship, 1,000; borough president, 2,150; mayor, 7,500. People registered with the Republican or Democratic parties do not have to vote with their party.

There are fifty-eight senators in the New York state legislature. Four are from Manhattan; one is black. In the New York state assembly, there are 150 assemblymen. I think three are black; maybe more than that. According to calculation, if the Negro were proportionately represented in the state senate and state assembly, we would have several representatives in the state senate and several in the state assembly. There are 435 members in the United States House of Representatives. According to the census, there are 22 million Afro-Americans in the United States. If they were represented proportionately in this body, there would be 30 to 40 members of our race sitting in that body. How many are there? Five. There are 100 senators in the United States Senate. Hawaii, with a population of only 600,000, has two senators representing it. The black man, with a population of in excess of 20 million, is not represented in the Senate at all. Worse than this, many of the congressmen and representatives in the Congress of the United States come from states where black people are killed if they attempt to exercise the right to vote.

What you and I want to do in this political department is have our brothers and sisters who are experts in the science of politics acquaint our people in our community with what we should have, and who should be doing it, and how we can go about getting what we should have. This will be their job and we want you to play this role so we can get some action without having to wait on Lyndon B. Johnson, Lyndon B. Texas Johnson.

Also, our economics department. We have an economics department. For any of you who are interested in business or a program that will bring about a situation where the black man in Harlem can gain control over his own economy and develop business expansion for our people in this community so we can create some employment opportunities for our people in this community, we will have this department.

We will also have a speakers bureau because many of our people want to speak, want to be speakers, they want to preach, they want to tell somebody what they know, they want to let off some steam. We will have a department that will train young men and young women how to go forth with our philosophy and our program and project it throughout the country; not only throughout this city but throughout the country.

We will have a youth group. The youth group will be designed to work with youth. Not only will it consist of youth, but it will also consist of adults. But it will be designed to work out a program for the youth in this country, one in which the youth can play an active part.

We also are going to have our own newspaper. You need a newspaper. We believe in the power of the press. A newspaper is not a difficult thing to run. A newspaper is very simple if you have the right motives. In fact, anything is simple if you have the right motives. The Muhammad Speaks newspaper, I and another person started it myself in my basement. And I’ve never gone past the eighth grade. Those of you who have gone to all these colleges and studied all kinds of journalism, yellow and black journalism, all you have to do is contribute some of your journalistic talent to our newspaper department along with our research department, and we can turn out a newspaper that will feed our people with so much information that we can bring about a real live revolution right here before you know it.

We will also have a cultural department. The task or duty of the cultural department will be to do research into the culture, into the ancient and current culture of our people, the cultural contributions and achievements of our people. And also all of the entertainment groups that exist on the African continent that can come here and ours who are here that can go there. Set up some kind of cultural program that will really emphasize the dormant talent of black people.

When I was in Ghana I was speaking with, I think his name is Nana Nketsia, I think he’s the minister of culture or he’s head of the culture institute. I went to his house, he had a—he had a nice, beautiful place; I started to say he had a sharp pad. He had a fine place in Accra. He had gone to Oxford, and one of the things that he said impressed me no end. He said that as an African his concept of freedom is a situation or a condition in which he, as an African, feels completely free to give vent to his own likes and dislikes and thereby develop his own African personality. Not a condition in which he is copying some European cultural pattern or some European cultural standard, but an atmosphere of complete freedom where he has the right, the leeway, to bring out of himself all of that dormant, hidden talent that has been there for so long.

And in that atmosphere, brothers and sisters, you’d be surprised what will come out of the bosom of this black man. I’ve seen it happen. I’ve seen black musicians when they’d be jamming at a jam session with white musicians—a whole lot of difference. The white musician can jam if he’s got some sheet music in front of him. He can jam on something that he’s heard jammed before. If he’s heard it, then he can duplicate it or he can imitate it or he can read it. But that black musician, he picks up his horn and starts blowing some sounds that he never thought of before. He improvises, he creates, it comes from within. It’s his soul...it’s that soul music. It’s the only area on the American scene where the black man has been free to create. And he has mastered it. He has shown that he can come up with something that nobody ever thought of on his horn. 
Well likewise he can do the same thing if given intellectual independence. He can come up with a new philosophy. He can come up with a philosophy that nobody has heard of yet. He can invent a society, a social system, an economic system, a political system, that is different from anything that exists or has ever existed anywhere on this earth. He will improvise; he’ll bring it from within himself. And this is what you and I want.

You and I want to create an organization that will give us so much power we can sit down and do as we please. Once we can sit down and think as we please, speak as we please, and do as we please, we will show people what pleases us. And what pleases us won’t always please them. So you’ve got to get some power before you can be yourself. Do you understand that? You’ve got to get some power before you can be yourself. Once you get power and you be yourself why, you’re gone, you’ve got it and gone. You create a new society and make some heaven right here on this earth.

And we’re going to start right here tonight when we open up our membership books into the Organization of Afro-American Unity. I’m going to buy the first memberships myself—one for me, my wife, Attillah, Qubilah, these are my daughters, Ilyasah, and something else I expect to get either this week or next week. As I told you before, if it’s a boy I’m going to name him Lumumba, the greatest black man who ever walked the African continent.

He didn’t fear anybody. He had those people so scared they had to kill him. They couldn’t buy him, they couldn’t frighten him, they couldn’t reach him. Why, he told the king of Belgium, “Man, you may let us free, you may have given us our independence, but we can never forget these scars.” The greatest speech—you should take that speech and tack it up over your door. This is what Lumumba said: “You aren’t giving us anything. Why, can you take back these scars that you put on our bodies? Can you give us back the limbs that you cut off while you were here? No, you should never forget what that man did to you. And you bear the scars of the same kind of colonization and oppression not on your body, but in your brain, in your heart, in your soul right now. So, if it’s a boy, Lumumba. If it’s a girl Lumumbah.

We hope that we will be able to give you all the action you need. And more than likely we’ll be able to give you more than you want. We just hope that you stay with us.  Our meeting will be next Sunday night right here.

We want you to bring all of your friends and we’ll be able to go forward. Up until now, these meetings have been sponsored by the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated. They’ve been sponsored and paid for by the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated. Beginning next Sunday, they will be sponsored and paid for by the Organization of Afro-American Unity.

I don’t know if I’m right in saying this, but for a period of time, let’s you and me not be too hard on other Afro-American leaders. Because you would be surprised how many of them have expressed sympathy and support in our efforts to bring this situation confronting our people before the United Nations. You’d be surprised how many of them, some of the last ones you would expect, they’re coming around. So let’s give them a little time to straighten up. If they straighten up, good. They’re our brothers and we’re responsible for our brothers. But if they don’t straighten up, then that’s another point.

And one thing that we are going to do, we’re going to dispatch a wire, a telegram that is, in the name of the Organization of Afro-American Unity to Martin Luther King in St. Augustine, Florida, and to Jim Forman in Mississippi, worded in essence to tell them that if the federal government doesn’t come to their aid, call on us. And we will take the responsibility of slipping some brothers into that area who know what to do by any means necessary.

I can tell you right now that my purpose is not to become involved in a fight with Black Muslims, who are my brothers still. I do everything I can to avoid that because there’s no benefit in it. It actually makes our enemy happy. But I do believe that the time has come for you and me to take the responsibility of forming whatever nucleus or defense group is necessary in places like Mississippi.

Why, they shouldn’t have to call on the federal government—that’s a drag. No, when you and I know that our people are the victims of brutality, and all times the police in those states are the ones who are responsible, then it is incumbent upon you and me, if we are men, if we are to be respected and recognized, it is our duty to do something about it. Johnson knew that when he sent Dulles down there. Johnson has found this out. You don’t disappear. How are you going to disappear? Why, this man can find a missing person in China. They send the CIA all the way to China and find somebody. They send the FBI anywhere and find somebody.

But they can’t find them whenever the criminal is white and the victim is black then they can’t find them.

Let’s don’t wait on any more FBI to look for criminals who are shooting and brutalizing our people. Let’s you and me find them. And I say that it’s easy to do it. One of the best-organized groups of black people in America was the Black Muslims. They’ve got all the machinery, don’t think they haven’t; and the experience where they know how to ease out in broad daylight or in dark and do whatever is necessary by any means necessary. They know how to do that. Well I don’t blame anybody for being taught how to do that. You’re living in a society where you’re the constant victim of brutality. You must know how to strike back.

So instead of them and us wasting our shots, I should say our time and energy, on each other, what we need to do is band together and go to Mississippi. That’s my closing message to Elijah Muhammad: If he is the leader of the Muslims and the leader of our people, then lead us against our enemies, don’t lead us against each other.

I thank you for your patience here tonight, and we want each and every one of you to put your name on the roll of the Organization of Afro-American Unity. The reason we have to rely upon you to let the public know where we are is because the press doesn’t help us; they never announce in advance that we’re going to have a meeting. So you have to spread the word over the grapevine. Thank you. Asalaam Alaikum.

Robert Penn Warren Interviews Malcolm X (June 2, 1964)

Robert Penn Warren: This is the first tape of a conversation with Mr. Malcolm X, June 2nd. From what I have read, which includes books I could find and a good many articles on the Black Muslim position and on yourself, it seems that the identity of the Negro is the key fact that you deal with, is that true? Is that impression correct?

Malcolm X: Yes. Yes, and not not so much in the sense of the Black Muslim religion.

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: Both of them have to be separated.

Warren: Yes.


Malcolm X: The black people in this country are taught that their religion and the best religion is the religion of Islam, and when one accepts the religion of Islam, he’s known as a Muslim. He becomes a Muslim. That means he believes that there’s no God but Allah and that Mohammed is the apostle of Allah. Now besides teaching him that Islam is the best religion, since the main problem that American...the Afro-Americans have is a lack of cultural identity, it is necessary to teach him that he has some type of identity, culture, civilization before he was brought here. Well, now, teaching him about his historic or cultural past is is not his religion. This is not...it’s not religious.

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: The two have to be separated.


Warren: Yes. Or what about the matter of personal identity as related to cultural and blood identity?

Malcolm X: I don’t quite understand what you mean.


Warren: I mean I’m trying to get at this. That is, a man may know that he belongs to, say, a group—this group or that group—but he feels himself lost within that group, trapped within his own deficiencies and without personal purpose. Lacking personal identity, you see.

Malcolm X: Yes. Well, the religion of Islam actually restores one’s human feelings, human rights, human incentives, human...his talent. The religion of Islam brings out of the individual all of his dormant potential. It it gives him the incentive to develop his dormant potential so that when he becomes a part of the brotherhood of Islam, and is identified collectively in the brotherhood of Islam with the brothers in Islam, at the same time this also gives him the...it has a psychological effect of giving him the incentive as an individual to develop all of his dormant potential to its fullest extent.

Warren: A personal regeneration then.
..

Malcolm X: Yes.


Warren: ...is associated automatically with this?

Malcolm X: Oh, yes. Yes.


Warren: Sometimes in talking with Negroes in other organizations and other persuasions, I’ve found about there’s a deep suspicion of any approach which involves the old phrase “self improvement”, you see.

Malcolm X: Yes.

Warren: And to state the matter on objective, impersonal matters such as civil rights, integration, or job programs, and not on the question of self improvement or, you might say, the individual responsibility.

Malcolm X: That...


Warren: But you you take a different line.

Malcolm X: Definitely. Most of the, or I should say many of the Negro leaders actually suffer themselves from an inferiority complex even though they say they don’t. And because of this they have subconscious defensive mechanisms which they’ve erected without even realizing it. So that when you mentioned something about self improvement, the implication is that the Negro is something distinct or different and, therefore, needs to learn how to improve himself. Negro leaders resent this being said, not because they don’t know it’s true, but they’re thinking they’re looking at it personally. They think that the implication is directed even at them, and that they...and they duck this responsibility. Whereas the only real solution to the race problem in this country is a solution that involves individual self improvement and collective self improvement in whereas our own...wherein our own people are concerned.

Warren: Could you tell me or would you be willing to, or do you think it’s relevant, some detail of your own conversion to Islam?

Malcolm X: Well, I was in prison.


Warren: I know that fact, yes. I’m asking about the interior feeling of the process.


Malcolm X: Yes. Well, I was in prison and I was an atheist. I didn’t believe in anything. And I had begun to read books and things and, in fact, one of the persons who started me thinking seriously was an atheist that I...another Negro inmate whom I’d heard in a discussion with white inmates and who was able to hold his own at all levels. And he impressed me with his knowledge, and I began to listen very carefully to some of the things he said. And it was he who switched my reading habits in a direction away from fiction to non-fiction, so that by the time one of my brothers told me about Islam, although I...although I was an atheist, I was open-minded, and I began to read in that direction, in the direction of Islam, and everything that I read about it appealed to me. And one of the main things that I read about it that appealed to me was in Islam a man is regarded as a human being. He’s not measured by the color of his skin. At this point I hadn’t yet gotten deep into the historic condition that Negroes in this country are confronted with, but at that point in my prison studies I read, I studied Islam as a religion more so than as I later come to know it in its connection with the plight or problem of Negroes in this country.

Warren: This is getting ahead a little bit but it seems to apply here. If Islam teaches the human worth of all men without reference to color, how does that fact relate to the methods of black superiority and the doom of the white race?

Malcolm X: Well, the white race is doomed not because it’s white but because of its deeds, and the people listening very closely to what the Muslims have always declared...

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: ...they’ll find that in every declaration there’s the fact that the same as as Moses told Pharaoh, “You’re doomed if you don’t do so and so,” or as Daniel told I think it was Balthazar or Nebuchadnezzar, “You are doomed if you don’t do so and so.” Now, always that “if ” was there, which meant that the one who was doomed could avoid the doom if he would change his way of behaving. Well, it’s the same here in America. When the Muslims deliver the indictment of the American system, it is not the white man per se that is being doomed.

Warren: It’s not blood itself that’s being...there’s no blood damnation then?

Malcolm X: No. But, see, the...it’s almost impossible to separate the actions, or it’s also, it’s almost impossible to separate the oppression and exploitation, criminal oppression and criminal exploitation of the American Negro, from the color of the skin of the person who is the oppressor or the exploiter. So he thinks he’s being condemned because of his color but, actually, he’s being condemned because of his deeds, his conscious behavior.

Warren: Let’s take the question like this—can a person, an American of white blood, be guiltless?

Malcolm X: Guiltless?

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: Well, you can only answer it this way, by turning it around. Can the Negro, who is the victim of the system, escape the collective stigma that is placed upon all Negroes in this country? And the answer is “No.” Because Ralph Bunche, who is an internationally recognized and respected diplomat, can’t stay in a hotel in Georgia, which means that no matter what the accomplishment, the intellectual, the academic, or professional level of a Negro is, collectively he stands condemned. Well, the white race in America is the same way. As individuals it is impossible for them to escape the collective crime committed against the Negroes in this country collectively.

Warren: Let’s take an extreme case like this, just the most extreme example I can think of. Let us say a white child of three or four, something like that, who is outside of conscious decisions or valuations, is facing accidental death, you see. Is the reaction to that child the same as the reaction to a a Negro child facing the same situation?

Malcolm X: Well, just take the Negro child. Take the white child. The white child, although it has not committed any of the...as a person has not committed any of the deeds that has produced the plight that the Negro finds himself in, is he guiltless? The only way you can determine that is, take the Negro child who’s only four years old. Can he escape though he’s only four years old, can he escape the stigma of discrimination and segregation? He’s only four years old.

Warren: Let’s put him in front of the oncoming truck and put a white man on the pavement who must risk his life to leap for the child. Let’s reverse it.

Malcolm X: I don’t see where that...

Warren: Some white man would leap. Some wouldn’t leap.

Malcolm X: It would not...it still wouldn’t alter the fact that after that white man saved that little black child, he couldn’t take that little black child in many restaurants, hotels, in places right along with him.

Warren: Umhmm.

Malcolm X: Even after the child, the life of the black child was saved, but that same white man will have to toss him right back into the discriminate-...into discrimination, segregation, and these other things.

Warren: Well, suppose let’s take a case, suppose that white man is prepared to go to jail to break segregation?

Malcolm X: His going to jail to break segregation still has...and if he broke segregation
...

Warren: Just keep it on the individual, this one white man.


Malcolm X: You can’t solve it individually.


Warren: But what you’re having toward the one white man who goes to jail, say, not once but over and over again, say, in...

Malcolm X: This has been going on for the past ten years.

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: White individuals that have been going to jail. Segregation still exists. Discrimination still exists.

Warren: Yes, that’s true. But what is the attitude toward the white man who does this, who goes to jail?

Malcolm X: My personal attitude...


Warren: That’s what I mean.


Malcolm X: ...is that he has done nothing to solve the problem.


Warren: What’s your attitude toward his moral nature?


Malcolm X: Not even interested in his moral nature. Until the problem is solved, we don’t we’re not interested in anybody’s moral nature.

Warren: At all?

Malcolm X: But what I’m boiling down to say is that the a few isolated white people whose individual acts are designed to eliminate this, that or or the next thing but, yet, it is never eliminated, is in no way impressive to me.

Warren: That is, you couldn’t call that man a friend?

Malcolm X: If his own rights were being trampled upon as the rights of Negroes are being trampled upon, he would use a different course of action to protect his rights.

Warren: What course of action?

Malcolm X: I have never seen white people who would sit...who would...who would approach a solution to their own problems non-violently or passively. It’s only when they are so-called “fighting for the rights of Negroes” that they non-violently, passively and lovingly, you know, approach the situation. But when the whites themselves are attacked, they believe in defending themselves and things of that sort. But those type of whites who are always going to jail with Negroes are the ones who tell Negroes to be loving and be kind and be patient and be non-violent and turn the other cheek.

Warren: But...

Malcolm X: So if I did see a white man who was willing to go to jail or throw himself in front of a car in behalf of the so-called Negro cause, the test that I’d put to him, I’d ask him, “Do you think when Negroes are being attacked they should defend themselves even at the risk of having to kill the one who’s attacking them?” If that white man told me, “Yes,” I’d shake his hand. I’d trust in him. But I don’t trust any white man who teaches Negroes to turn the other cheek or to be non-violent, which means to be defenseless in the face of a very brutal, criminal enemy. No. That’s my yardstick for measuring whites.

Warren: Now, the question, what is defenseless at this point?

Malcolm X: Any time you tell a man to turn the other cheek or to be non-violent in the face of a violent enemy, you’re making that man defenseless. You’re robbing him of his God-given right to defend himself.

Warren: Let’s take a concrete case again on the question of defenselessness just to be sure I understand you. If, say, in the case of Dr. Aaron Henry in Mississippi Clarksdale, Mississippi, his house has been bombed and has been shot through and that sort of thing. Well, he is armed. I’ve been in his house. I know he’s armed. His guards are sitting there with arms with the arms that they’re in their hands at night. And everybody knows this. Now, I can’t see how anyone would ask him not to defend himself, you see? If defense is literally defense, as it’s taken in ordinary legal times, or a mounted aggression for purposes of defense is another thing in society, you see what I’m getting at? A man sitting in his own house...

Malcolm X: I think that a Negro...

Warren: ...is one thing. A man who goes out and performs an act of violence as is some sort of a long-range defense.

Malcolm X: I think that the Negro should reserve the right to execute any measure necessary to defend himself. Any way, any form necessary to defend himself, he should reserve the right to do that just the same as others have the right to do it.

Warren: Well, political assassination, for instance?

Malcolm X: I don’t know anything about that. I wouldn’t even answer a question like that.

Warren: Umhmm.

Malcolm X: But I say that the Negro, when he is...when, when they cease to look at him as a Negro and realize that he’s a human being, then they will realize that he is just as capable and has the right to do anything that any other human being on this earth has a right to do to defend himself.

Warren: Well, there are millions of white people who would say right away that the Negro should have any...Negro should have the same legal rights to defense that a white man has.

Malcolm X: And I think you’ll find also that if the Negro ever realizes that he should begin to fight for real for his freedom, there are many whites who will fight on his side with him. It’s not a case where people think he’ll be the underdog or be outnumbered. But there are many white people in this country who realize that the system itself, as it is constructed, is not so constructed that it can produce freedom and equality for the Negro, and the system has to be changed. It is the system itself that is incapable of producing freedom for the 22 million Afro-Americans. Just like a chicken can’t lay a duck egg. A chicken can’t lay a duck egg because the system of the chicken isn’t constructed in the way to produce a duck egg. And just as that chicken system can’t produce...is not capable of producing a duck egg, the political and economic system of this country is absolutely incapable of producing freedom and justice and equality and human dignity for the 22 million Afro-Americans.

Warren: You don’t see in the American system the possibility of self-regeneration then...

Malcolm X: No, nothing there’s nothing in...

Warren: ...of change?


Malcolm X: No. There the American system itself is incapable it’s it is as incapable of producing freedom for the Afro-American as a as the system of a chicken is of producing a duck egg.

Warren: You don’t see any possibility of gains or or better solutions through political...

Malcolm X: No.


Warren: ...Negro political action or economic action?

Malcolm X: Well, any time the Negro becomes involved in mature political action, then the resistance of the politicians who benefit from the exploited political system as it now stands, will come, will be forced to put...exercise more violent action to deprive the Negro of his mature political action.

Warren: Do you think that Adam Clayton Powell’s political career has been one of mature political action? He thinks highly of you. He speaks high-...he speaks to me highly of you.

Malcolm X: Adam Clayton Powell’s entire political career has to be looked at in the entire context of the American history and the history of and the position of the Afro-American or Negro in American history, and then when they and when you take all of these factors combined you can see where Adam Clayton Powell is a remarkable man and has done a remarkable job in fighting for rights of black people in this country. On the other hand, he probably hasn’t done as much as he could or as much as he should because he is the most independent Negro politician in this country. There’s no politician in this country of national stature who is more independent of the political machine as Adam Clayton Powell is.

Warren: Well, Dawson’s a pure victim of it, of course, in Chicago, Congressman Dawson.

Malcolm X: Yes. I don’t know too much about Dawson, but from what I’ve heard, he’s more, he has no independence of action when it comes to the political machine there in Chicago.

Warren: But is Adam Clayton Powell’s line a line of what you’d call “mature political action,” or has that been frustrated and...

Malcolm X: In my opinion, mature political action is the type of action that enables the, that involves a program of re-education and information that will enable the black people in the black community to see the fruits that they should be receiving from the politicians who are over them and, thereby, they are then able to determine whether or not the politician is really fulfilling his function. And if he is not fulfilling his function, they then can set up the machinery to remove him from that position by whatever means necessary. To me, political action involves making the politician who represents us know that he either produces or he is out, and he’s out one way or another.

Warren: There’s only one way to put a politician out ordinarily, is to vote him out.

Malcolm X: Well, I think that the black people in this country have the reached the point where they should reserve the right to do whatever is necessary to see that they exercise complete control over the politicians in the politician, in the politics of their own community by whatever means necessary.

Warren: Let’s go back to the matter of your conversion, or some of the details of that. Was it fast or slow, a simple a matter as that?

Malcolm X: It was fast.

Warren: Flash, a flash...


Malcolm X: Yes.


Warren: ...of intuition?


Malcolm X: No, it was fast. I, strange as it may seem, I turned I think I took an about-turn overnight.

Warren: Really overnight, just like that?


Malcolm X: Yes. And while I was in prison and wasn’t a Muslim, I was indulging in all types of vice, right within the prison. And I never was ostracized as much by the penal authorities while I was participating in all of the evils of the prison, as they tried to ostracize me after I became a Muslim.

Warren: Why was that?

Malcolm X: Well, the prison systems in this country actually are exploitive and they are not in any way rehabilitative. They’re not designed to rehabilitate the inmate, though the public propaganda is that this is their function. But they, the most people who work in prison earn money through contraband. They earn their, they earn extra money by selling contraband, dope, and things of that sort to the inmates, and so that really it’s an exploiter.

Warren: This was a matter of defending their commercial interests.

Malcolm X: Right.

Warren: Their economic interests and not a matter of fear of the Muslim movement, is that it?

Malcolm X: Both.


Warren: Oh, it’s both.


Malcolm X: It’s both. They have a fear of the Muslim movement and the Muslim religion because it has a tendency to make the people who accept it stick together. And I had one warden tell me since I’ve been out, and I visited an inmate in prison right here in New York, Warden Fay up at Green Haven

Warren: Fain?

Malcolm X: Fay. Fay, F-A-Y. In 1959 or ‘8, along in there, I visited an inmate in prison and he told me that he didn’t want anybody in there trying to spread this religion. And I asked him at that time if it didn’t make a better inmate out of the Negroes who accepted it and he said, “Yes.” So I asked him then what was it about it that he considered to be so dangerous, and he pointed out that it was the cohesiveness that it produced among the inmates. They stuck together. What you did to one, you did to all. So they couldn’t have that type of religion being taught in the prison.

Warren: Just a matter of maintaining their own control then?

Malcolm X: Yes.

Warren: Has there been any change in your religious beliefs since your break out last fall?

Malcolm X: Well, I have gone through the process of re-evaluating, giving a personal re-evaluation to everything that I ever believed and that I did believe while I was a a member and a minister...

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: ...in the Black in what we call the Black Muslim Movement.

Warren: May I ask how you’ve come out of that evaluation?

Malcolm X: Well, first I might say that when a person...when a man separates from his wife, at the outstart it’s a physical separation but it’s not a psychological separation. He still thinks of her in probably warm terms. And, but after the physical separation has taken, existed for a period of time, it becomes a psychological separation as well as physical. And he can then look at her more objectively. My split or separation from the Black Muslim Movement at first was only a physical separation, but my heart was still there and it was impossible for me to, for me to look at it objectively. After I made my tour in the Middle, into the Middle-East and Africa and visited Mecca and other places, I think that the separation became psychological as well as physical, so that I could look at it more objectively and separate that which was good from that which was bad.

Warren: Well, what did you find, if I may ask, good and what’s bad in this reevaluation?

Malcolm X: Well, I think now it’s possible for me to approach the whole problem with a broader scope, much broader scope. When you look at something through an organizational eye, whether it’s a a religious organization, political organization, or a civic organization, if you look at it only through the eye of that organization, you see what the organization wants you to see. But you lose your ability to be objective. But when you aren’t affiliated with anything, and then you look at something, you look at it with your eye to your to the best ability

Warren: Well, for example...


Malcolm X: ...and see it as it is.


Warren: ...for example, what specific thing do you now see as is and not through organizational eyes?

Malcolm X: Well, I can I look at the problem of the 22 million Afro-Americans as being a problem that’s so broad in scope that it’s almost impossible for any organization to see it in its entirety. And because the average Negro organization, especially, can’t see the problem in its entirety, they can’t even see that the problem is so big that their own organization as such, by itself, can never come to a...can never come up with a solution. The problem is so broad that it’s going to take the inner working of all organizations. It’s going to take a a united front of all organizations, looking at it with more objectivity, to come up with a solution that will that will stand against the whites.

Warren: Would you work, would you work then with the SCLC, Dr. King’s organization?

Malcolm X: Well, even as a Muslim minister in the Muslim movement, I have always said that I would work with any organization. But I can say it even more honestly now. Then when I said it, I would make the reservation that I would work with any organization as long as it didn’t make us compromise our religious principles. Now I think that the problem of the American Negro goes beyond the principle of any organization whether it’s a religious, political, or otherwise. The problem of the Negro is so criminal that many individuals and organizations are going to have to sacrifice what they call their organizational principles if someone comes up with a solution that will really solve the problem. If it’s a solution they want, they should go, they should, they should accept the solution. But if it’s a solution they want as long as it doesn’t interfere with their organization, then it means they’re more concerned with their organization than they are with getting a solution to the problem.

Warren: Because I’m trying to see how it would be possible to work with the Dr. King’s philosophy of non-violence, you see.

Malcolm X: Well, see, now, non-violence with Dr. King is only a method. That’s not his objective.


Warren: Yes. No, it’s not his objective but.

Malcolm X: Well, his objective, I think, is to gain respect for Negroes as human beings.

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: And non-violence is his, is his method. Well, my objective is the same as King’s. Now, we may disagree on methods, but we don’t have to argue all day on methods. Forget the methods or the differences in methods. As long as we agree that the thing that the Afro-American wants and needs is recognition and respect as a human being.

Warren: Would you change in the evaluation of the Black Muslim Movement in America, have you changed your view about separatism, political separatism, the actual formation of an independent state of some kind?

Malcolm X: Well, I might say this, that the problem of the solution for the Afro-American is two-fold—long- range and short-range. I believe that a psychological, cultural, and philosophical migration back to Africa will solve our problem. Not a physical migration, but a cultural, psychological, philosophical migration back to Africa, which means restoring our common bond will give us the spiritual strength and the incentive to strengthen our political and social and economic position right here in America, and to fight for the things that are ours by right here on this continent. And at the same time, this will also tend to give incentive to many of our people then to want to also visit and even migrate physically back to Africa. And those who stay here can help those who go back, and those who go back can help those who stay here in the same way that when Jews go to Israel, the Jews in America help those in Israel and the Jews in Israel help those in America.

Warren: Is that...that’s the long-range, the second thing is your long-range solution, is that it?

Malcolm X: Sir?

Warren: The second thing is a long-range solution? There are two aspects to the solution. One’s a short-range.

Malcolm X: Yes.


Warren: What’s the long-range?


Malcolm X: The short-range involves the long-range. Immediate steps have to be taken to re-educate our people...

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: ...into the a more real view of political, economic, and social conditions in this country, and our ability in a self-improvement program to gain control politically over every community in which we predominate, and also over the economy of that same community as here in Harlem. Instead of all the stores in Harlem being owned by white people, they should be owned and operated by black people. The same as in a German neighborhood, the stores are run by Germans, and in a Chinese neighborhood they’re run by Chinese. In the Negro neighborhood the businesses should be owned and operated by Negroes and, thereby, they will be employing and they will be creating employment for Negroes.

Warren: Right. You are thinking then of these, you might say, localities as being then operated by Negroes, not in terms of a separate a political state, a separate nation?

Malcolm X: No. The separating of a section of America for Afro-Americans is similar to expecting a heaven in the sky somewhere after you die.

Warren: It’s not practical then?

Malcolm X: To say it is not practical, ha-...one has to also admit that integration is not practical.

Warren: I don’t quite follow that.

Malcolm X: In stating that the idea of a separate state is not practical, I’m also stating that the idea of integration, forced integration, as they’ve been making an effort to do in this country for the past ten years, is also just as impractical.

Warren: That both these poles, these two opposites.

Malcolm X: Both are impractical.


Warren: Simply aren’t practical?


Malcolm X: Yes. Both of them are impractical.

Warren: You can envisage Negro sections or Negro communities which are self-determining.

Malcolm X: Yes, I do.

Warren: ...as a better solution?

Malcolm X: A re-education program is devised to bring our people to the intellectual, economic, political, and social level wherein we can control, own, operate our own communities economically, politically, socially, and otherwise. Why, any solution that doesn’t involve that is not even a solution. Because if I can’t run my neighborhood, you won’t want me in your neighborhood.

Warren: You are saying, in other words, you see neighborhoods and communities that are, that are all Afro-American and self-determining, but these are parts of a larger political unity as.

Malcolm X: Yes.


Warren: ...the United States?


Malcolm X: Because once the black man becomes the political master of his own community, it means that the politicians of that community will also be black, which also means that he then will be sending black representation or representatives not only to represent him at the local level and at the state level, but even at the federal level. See, all throughout the South in areas where the black man predominates, he would have black representatives in Washington, D.C. Well, my contention is that the political system of this country is so designing criminally to prevent this, that if the black man even started in that direction, which is a mature step and it’s the only way to really solve this problem and to prove that he is the intellectual equal of others, why, the racists and the segregationists would fight that harder than they’re fighting the present efforts to integrate.

Warren: They’ll fight it, yes. Let me ask you two questions around this. One, there are Negroes now holding a prominent place at the federal level.

Malcolm X: They’ve been put there


Warren: Like Dr. Weaver and.
..

Malcolm X: I don’t mean
...

Warren: Mr. Rowan and people like that.


Malcolm X: I don’t mean those kind of Negroes who are placed in big jobs as window dressing. I refer to a Negro politician as a Negro who is selected by Negroes, and who is backed by Negroes. Most of those Negroes have been given those jobs by the white political machine, and they serve no other function other than as window dressing.

Warren: Ralph Bunche, too?

Malcolm X: Any Negro who occupies a position that was given to him by the white man, if you analyze his function, his function never enables him to really take a firm, uncompromising, militant stand on problems that confront our people. He opens up his mouth only to the degree that the political atmosphere at the time will allow him to do so without rocking the boat too much.

Warren: Is your organization supporting the voter registration drive in Mississippi this summer?

Malcolm X: Yes. We’re going to work


Warren: Actively?


Malcolm X: Yes, we’re going to give active support to voter registration drives, not only in Mississippi, but in New York City. I just can’t see where Mississippi is that much different from New York City. Maybe in method or...

Warren: I don’t either.

Malcolm X: No, I don’t see...I never will let anyone maneuver me into making a distinction between the Mississippi form of discrimination and the New York City form of discrimination. It’s both discrimination. It’s all discrimination.

Warren: Are you actually putting workers in Mississippi this summer?

Malcolm X: We will. They won’t be non-violent workers.

Warren: Non-violent in which sense? Upon attack or...

Malcolm X: We will never send a Negro anywhere and tell him to be non-violent.

Warren: Umhmm. If he is shot at, shoot back?

Malcolm X: If you’re shot at, shoot back.


Warren: What about the matter of non-selective reprisals? Say, if a Negro is shot in Mississippi and like Medgar Evers, for instance, then shooting a white man or trying to shoot a responsible white man?

Malcolm X: Well, I’ll tell you. If I go home and someone...and my child has blood running down her leg and someone tells me that a snake bit her, I’m going out and kill the snake. And when I find the snake, I’m not going to look and see if he has blood on his jaws.

Warren: You mean you’ll kill any snake you find?

Malcolm X: I grew up in the country on a farm...

Warren: So did I.


Malcolm X: ...and it was whenever someone said even that a snake was eating the chickens or bothering the chickens, we’d kill snakes. We never knew whether that was the snake that did it.

Warren: To read your parallel then, you would advocate non-selective reprisal. Kill any white person around.

Malcolm X: I’m not saying that. I’m just telling you about snakes.

Warren: Yeah, okay. All right. We’ll settle for that.

Malcolm X: Well, I mean what I say.


Warren: Umhmm. I know what you say. I know how the parables worked. Let us suppose that we had, just suppose.

Malcolm X: Then, perhaps, you know the other...when the snakes out in that field begin to realize that if one of their members get out of line, it’s going to be detrimental to all of them, they’ll keep that perhaps they’ll then take the necessary steps to keep their fellow snakes away from my chickens or away from my children if the responsibility is placed upon them.

Warren: Suppose we had...this is maybe it’s a big supposition, but suppose we had an adequate civil rights legislation and fair employment.

Malcolm X: I might even answer that, if I may.

Warren: Yes, please, go ahead.


Malcolm X: I believe when a Negro church is bombed, that a white church should be bombed.

Warren: Reprisal.

Malcolm X: I believe it, yes. Can I, and I can give you the best example. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the United States struck back. She didn’t go and bomb...she bombed any part of Japan. She dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Those people in Hiroshima probably hadn’t even some of them most of them hadn’t even killed anybody.

Warren: Sure.

Malcolm X: But still she dropped that bomb. I think it killed eighty-some thousand people. Well, this is internationally recognized as a way, as justifiable during war. Any time a Negro community lives under fear that its churches are going to be bombed, then they are to realize they’re living in a war zone. And once they recognize it as such, they can adopt the same measures against the community that harbors the criminals who are responsible for this activity.

Warren: Now we have it. Now we have it. It’s a question of a Negro, say, in Birmingham, being outside of the community, being no part of the community, so he takes the same kind of reprisal he would take in wartime?

Malcolm X: He should realize that he is living in a war zone, and he is at war with an enemy that is as vicious and criminal and inhuman as any war-making country has ever been.

Warren: Umhmm.

Malcolm X: And once he realizes that, then he can defend himself.

Warren: Now, getting back to what I was about to say a moment ago. Suppose you had an adequate civil rights legislation enforced—suppose you had a fair employment practice code enforced. Suppose we had the objectives demanded by most civil rights organizations now actually existing, then what?

Malcolm X: Suppose.


Warren: Just suppose. Let’s suppose, let’s suppose.

Malcolm X: You’d have civil war. You’d have a race war in this country. In order to enforce...see, you can’t force people to act right toward each other. You can’t force, you cannot legislate heart, conditions and attitudes. And when you have to pass a law to make a man let me have a house, or you have to pass a law to make a man let me go to school, or you have to pass a law to make a man let me walk down the street, you have to enforce that law and you’d be living actually in a police state. It would take a police state in this country. I mean a real police state right now just to get a token recognition of a law. It took, I think, 15,000 troops and six million dollars to put one Negro in the University of Mississippi. That’s a police action, police state action.

Warren: That’s a police action.

Malcolm X: So, actually, all of the civil rights problems during the past ten years have created a situation where America right now is moving toward a police state. You can’t have anything otherwise. So that’s your supposition.

Warren: All right. Then you see no possibility of a self-regeneration for our society then?

Malcolm X: When I was in Mecca
...

Warren: Yes.


Malcolm X: I noticed that their they had no color problem. That they had people there whose eyes were blue and people there whose eyes were black, people whose skin was white, people whose skin was black, people whose hair was blond, people whose hair was black, from the whitest white person to the blackest black person.

Warren: I read your letters.

Malcolm X: There was no racism, there was no problem. But the religious philosophy that they had adopted, in my opinion, was the only thing and is the only thing that can remove the white from the mind of the white man and the Negro from the mind of the Negro. I have seen what Islam has done with our people, our people who had this feeling of Negro and it and it had a psychological effect of putting them in a in, a mental prison. When they accepted Islam, it removed that. Well, white people whom I have met, who have accepted Islam, they don’t regard themselves as white but as human beings. And by looking upon themselves as human beings, their whiteness to them isn’t the yardstick of perfection or honor or anything else. And, therefore, this creates within them an attitude that is different from the attitude of the white that you meet here in America, because then, and it was in Mecca that I realized that white is actually an attitude more so than it’s a color. And I and I can prove it because among Negroes we have Negroes who are as white as some white people. Still there’s a difference.

Warren: I was about to ask you about, what is a Negro?

Malcolm X: Yeah, it’s an attitude. I’ll tell you what it is. And white is an attitude. And it is the attitude of the American white man that is making him stand condemned today before the eyes of the entire dark world and even before the eyes of the Europeans. It is his attitude, his haughty, holier-than-thou attitude. He has the audacity to call himself even the “leader of the free world” while he has a country that can’t even give the basic human rights to over 22 million of its citizens. This takes audacity, this takes nerve. So it is this attitude today that’s causing the Americans to be condemned.

Warren: What do you take of the western European white as opposed to the American white?

Malcolm X: Well, there’s a great deal of difference in the a great deal of difference in the, when you say west European, even there’s a difference between the west European and the east European.

Warren: That’s what I’m talking about.

Malcolm X: Oh, yes. But there’s a great deal of difference in them. Many of them who belong to these countries that were former colonial powers have racist attitudes, but their racist attitude is never displayed to the degree that the America’s attitude of racism is displayed. Never.

Warren: You know the book by Essien Udom called Black Nationalism? I know you must.

Malcolm X: I was with Essien Udom in...


Warren: You were?

Malcolm X: ...in Nigeria last month.


Warren: I wish you’d tell me about him. Who is he?

Malcolm X: Well, he’s a Nigerian. At present he’s a professor at Ibadan University.


Warren: Ah! I didn’t know where he was. Now I knew he was a scholar.

Malcolm X: Yes.

Warren: Do you agree with his analysis that the Black Muslim religion, Islam in America, has served as a concealed device to gratify the American Negro’s aspirations to white middle-class values?

Malcolm X: No, I don’t think
...

Warren: He takes that view, you know.


Malcolm X: Yes, but I don’t think that the objective of the American Negro is white middle-class values because what are white middle-class values? And what makes the whites who have these middle-class values have those values? Where did they get it? They didn’t have these same values, you know, four hundred years, five hundred years ago. Where did they get their value system that they now have attained to? And my contention is that if you trace it back, it was the people of the East who brought them out of the Dark Ages, who brought about the period, or ushered in or initiated the atmosphere that brought into Europe the period known as the Renaissance or the re-awakening of Europe. And this re-awakening actually involved an era during which the people of Europe, who were coming out of the Dark Ages, were then adopting the value system of the people in the East, in the, of the oriental society, many of which they were exposed to for the first time during the Crusades.

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: Well, these were African these were African-Arab-Asian values. The only section of Europe that had a high value system during the Dark Ages was the, were those on the Iberian Peninsula in the Spanish-Portuguese area, southern France. And that high state of a culture existed there because of Africans known as Moors had come there and brought it there. So that value system has been handed right down in European society. And today when you find Negroes, if they even look like they’re adopting these so-called middle-class values, standards, it’s not that they’re taking something from the white man, but they’re probably identifying again with the level or standard that these same whites have gotten from them back during that period.

Warren: You would approach Essien Udom’s theory on that ground, undercutting it?

Malcolm X: Undercutting it, definitely.


Warren: Yes.


Malcolm X: I think that if he had something he didn’t take it back far enough in history...

Warren: I see.

Malcolm X: ...to get at the proper understanding of it.

Warren: You know there’s a theory that’s sometimes enunciated by people like Reverend Wyatt Walker, for one, or Whitney Young, that the Black Muslim is primarily created by the white press. He exists but in a, in a...his importance was created by the white press.

Malcolm X: Wyatt doesn’t say that as much as Whitney Young does.

Warren: Both of them say it. Both of them said it to me, anyway.

Malcolm X: Well...

Warren: A paper tiger is what Wyatt what Wyatt Walker calls it.

Malcolm X: Yeah. Well, I can answer them like this. Wyatt Walker can walk through Harlem. No one would know him.

Warren: Yeah.

Malcolm X: Whitney Young could walk through Harlem. No one would know him. Any of the Black Muslims can walk through Harlem and there’s people know them. I don’t think that anyone has been really created more by the white press than the civil right leaders. The white press itself created them. And they themselves in their pronouncements will tell you they need white allies, they need white help, they need white this.

Warren: Yes, some of them do.

Malcolm X: They are more a creation of the white press and the white community, and are more dependent on the white community than any other group in the in the community.

Warren: Almost word for word what you have said I could turn around as Wyatt Walker said to me about, not you personally, but about the whole Black Muslim movement. That if you go outside of New York City, Dr. King is known to ninety percent of the Negroes in the United States and is respected and is identified more or less with him, at least as a hero of one kind or another. That the Black Muslim, outside of one or two communities like New York, are unknown.

Malcolm X: Well, if that’s their opinion, that’s their opinion. I myself have never been concerned with whether we are considered known or unknown. It’s it’s no problem of ours.

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: I will say this. That anytime there’s a fire in the Negro community and it’s burning out of control, you send of anyone of them send Whitney Young in to put it out.

Warren: What do you think of Abraham Lincoln?

Malcolm X: I think that he probably did more to trick Negroes than any other man in history.

Warren: Can you explain that?.

Malcolm X: Well, there’s his own...where he I have read where he said he wasn’t interested in freeing the slaves.

Warren: He said that, yes.

Malcolm X: So he was interested in saving the Union. Well, most Negroes have been tricked into thinking that Lincoln was a Negro lover whose primary aim was to free them, and he died because he freed them. I think Lincoln did more to deceive Negroes and to make the race problem in this country worse than any man in history.

Warren: How does Kennedy relate to...

Malcolm X: Kennedy, I relate right along with Lincoln. Lincoln to me...Kennedy was a deceitful man. He was a cold-blooded politician whose purpose was to get elected. And the only time Kennedy made any, took any action to even look like he identified with Negroes was when he was forced to. Kennedy didn’t even make his speech based on this problem being a moral issue until Negroes exploded in Birmingham. During. during...

Warren: Yes, that was Birmingham.

Malcolm X: Right. During the whole month that Negroes were being beaten by police and washed down the sewer with water hoses, and King was in jail begging for the federal government to intervene, Kennedy’s reply was, “No federal statutes have been violated.” And it was only when the Negroes erupted that Kennedy come on the television with all his old pretty words. No, the man was a deceiver. He was deceitful and I will never bite my tongue in saying that. I don’t think he was anything but a politician, and he used Negroes to get elected and to get votes.

Warren: What about Roosevelt?

Malcolm X: Same thing. There was no president ever had more power than Roosevelt. Roosevelt could have solved many problems, and all he did was..put...took Negroes off welfare, or first he put them onto welfare, WPA and other projects that he had, and then, if it hadn’t been for Hitler going on the rampage, Negroes would still be on the welfare.

Warren: What about Eleanor Roosevelt?

Malcolm X: Same thing. Eleanor Roosevelt was the chairman of the United Nations Human Rights Commission, I think it was, at a time when this country, and at the time that the Human Rights, the Covenant on Human Rights was formed, this country didn’t even sign it. This country has never signed the United Nations Covenant on Human Rights. They signed the Declaration of Human Rights. But if they had signed the covenant they would have to get it ratified by the Congress and the Senate, and they could never get the Congress and the Senate to agree to an international law on human rights when they couldn’t even get Congress or the Senate to agree on a civil rights law. So Eleanor Roosevelt could easily have told Negroes the deceitful maneuvering of the United States government that was going on behind the scenes. She never did it. In my opinion she was just another white woman who...whose profession was to make it appear that she was on the Negro’s side. You have a lot of whites who are in this category. Therefore, they are made Negro loving a profession. They are what I call professional liberals who take advantage of the confidence that Negroes place in them and, therefore, this enhances their own prestige and it gives them key roles to play in the in the politics of this country.

Warren: What about James Baldwin?


Malcolm X: Jimmy Baldwin
 is a Negro writer.


Warren: What’s the content of that?


Malcolm X: He’s a Negro writer who has gained fame because of his indictment and his very acid description—I call it an acid description—of what’s going on in this country. My only...I don’t agree with his non-violent, peaceful, loving approach. I just saw his play, Blues for Mr. Charlie, which I thought was an excellent play until it ended. And if you’ve seen the end of it, you’ll see what I mean.

Warren: I haven’t seen it yet.

Malcolm X: Well, you see it. All during the play I’m thinking that it has that, when at the final act that revenge will be taken, or justice will be given for the murder that has taken place.

Warren: I understand that the Ford Foundation is financing the play now—I hear this, I’m not certain of it—is financing it to keep it open a little while longer. Well, that’s a strange situation, isn’t it?

Malcolm X: Not to me.


Warren: Why?


Malcolm X: I don’t know, but it’s not strange. I like, as I say, I like the play, Blues for Mr. Charlie, but the ending of it has the Negro again forgetting that a lynching has just taken place.

Warren: That’s why the Ford Foundation might subsidize it, is that it?

Malcolm X: Well, I think that a white that segments like that of the white power structure will subsidize anything that implies that Negroes should be forgiving and long-suffering.

Warren: You know Ralph Ellison’s work?

Malcolm X: Not too well. All I know is that he wrote The Invisible Man.

Warren: Yes. Have you read that?


Malcolm X: No, but I know that I got the point.

Warren: Yeah. What do you think of his position?

Malcolm X: I don’t know what his position is. If his position is that the Negro in this society is an invisible man, then that’s a good position. Whatever else goes with it, I don’t know.

Warren: All right. Taking another, somewhat different tack, what about Nehru?

Malcolm X: I would like to add to...

Warren: Please, do.


Malcolm X: ...Ellison’s Invisible Man.

Warren: Please.

Malcolm X: See, the Negro, as an invisible man...usually when a man is invisible he knows more about those who are visible, than those who are visible know about him. And my contention is that the Negro knows more about the white man, and white society, than the white man knows about the Negro and Negro society.

Warren: I think that’s true.

Malcolm X: The servant always knows his master better than the master knows his servant. The servant the mas-...the servant watches the master sleep, but the master never sees the servant sleep. The servant sees the master angry. The master never sees the servant angry. So the servant always knows the master better than the master knows the servant. In fact, the servant knows the house better than the master does. And my contention is that the Negro knows this country better than the white man does, every facet of it, and when he wakes up he’ll prove it. Now, about Nehru?

Warren: Yes.

Malcolm X: I think that Nehru probably was a good man, although I didn’t go for it. I don’t go for anybody who is passive. I don’t go for anybody...who is...who is...who advocates passivism or peaceful suffering in any form whatsoever. I don’t go for it.

Warren: What about Jesus Christ?

Malcolm X: I go for Mao Tse-tung much more than Nehru because I think that Nehru brought his country up in a beggar’s role. Their roles, the role of India and its reliance upon the West during the years since it got its supposed independence, has it today just as helpless and dependent as it was when it first got its independence. Whereas in China, the Chinese fought for their independence. They became militant right from the outstart, and today they’re...even though they aren’t loved, they are, they are respected. Though the West doesn’t love them, the West respects them. Now, the West doesn’t respect India, but it loves India.

Warren: I see your distinction.


Malcolm X: Can you see my distinction?


Warren: I do indeed.


Malcolm X: I admire the stand of China and the stand of Mao Tsetung, but I can’t admire, with respect, the stand of Nehru in India. I just can’t do it.

Warren: What about Reverend Galamison?

Malcolm X: Reverend Galamison is fighting a hard battle against great opposition, and I admire a man who fights a hard battle against great opposition.

Warren: No matter what’s he fighting for or against?

Malcolm X: Well, I admire a man who fights a battle against opposition, and if there wasn’t something about Galamison that...the people I notice that the power structure is against Galamison. And most of the Negro leaders who get the support of the power structure end up being against Galamison. So my suspicious nature is that there’s something that Galamision, about Galamison that must have some good in it or some right in it.

Warren: Well, his policy is one of integration, and that isn’t exactly your policy.

Malcolm X: No, but at the same time his policy is intelligent enough where he can’t be used to attack me. And and most of these other Negro leaders who are supposedly integrationists aren’t that intelligent.

Warren: I see.

Malcolm X: All right.


Warren: Are you being dragged away?

Malcolm X: Yes, I’m being
...

Warren: All right. Well, I’ll pack up.