A. B. Spellman Interviews Malcolm X (March 19, 1964)

Spellman: Please answer these charges that are often raised against you: That you are as racist as Hitler and the Klan, etc. That you are anti-Semitic. That you advocate mob violence.

Malcolm X: No, we’re not racists at all. Our brotherhood is based on the fact that we are all black, brown, red, or yellow. We don’t call this racism, any more than you could refer to the European Common Market which consists of Europeans, which means that it consists of white-skin people—is not referred to as a racist coalition. It’s referred to as the European Common Market, an economic group—while our desire for unity among black, brown, red, and yellow is for brotherhood—has nothing to do with racism, has nothing to do with Hitler, has nothing to do with the Klan. In fact, the Klan in this country was designed to perpetuate an injustice upon Negroes; whereas the Muslims are designed to eliminate the injustice that has been perpetuated upon the so-called Negro.
We’re anti-exploitation and in this country the Jews have been located in the so-called Negro community as merchants and businessmen for so long that they feel guilty when you mention that the exploiters of Negroes are Jews. This doesn’t mean that we are anti-Jews or anti-Semitic—we’re anti-exploitation. No. We have never been involved in any kind of violence whatsoever. We have never initiated any violence against anyone, but we do believe that when violence is practiced against us we should be able to defend ourselves. We don’t believe in turning the other cheek.

Spellman: Why did you find it necessary to split with the Nation of Islam?

Malcolm X: Well, I did encounter opposition within the Nation of Islam. Many obstacles were placed in my path, not by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, but by others who were around him and since I believe that his analysis of the race problem is the best one and his solution is the only one, I felt that I could best circumvent these obstacles and expedite his program better by remaining out of the Nation of Islam and establishing a Muslim group that is an action group designed to eliminate the same ills that the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad have made so manifest in this country.

Spellman: What is the name of the organization that you have founded?

Malcolm X: The Muslim Mosque Inc., which means we are still Muslims—we still worship in a mosque and we’re incorporated as a religious body.

Spellman: Can other Muslims work with the Muslim Mosque Inc. without leaving the Nation of Islam?

Malcolm X: Oh yes. Yes anyone who is in the Nation of Islam who wants to work with us and remain in the Nation of Islam, is welcome. I am a follower of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad—I believe in the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The only reason I am in the Muslim Mosque Inc. is because I feel I can better expedite his program by being free of the restraint and the other obstacles that I encountered in the Nation.

Spellman: Will you have access to Muhammad Speaks?

Malcolm X: Probably not. No, I very much doubt that the same forces which forced me out would permit me access to the Muhammad Speaks newspaper as an organ although I am the founder of the paper, the originator of the paper. Few people realize it—I was the one who originated Muhammad Speaks. The initial editions were written entirely by me in my basement.

Spellman: Will you start another publication?

Malcolm X: Yes. One of the best ways to propagate any idea is with a publication of some sort and if Allah blesses us with success we will have another publication. We’ll probably name it the Flaming Crescent because we want to set the world on fire.

Spellman: How religious is the Muslim Mosque Inc.? Will it be more politically oriented?

Malcolm X: The Muslim Mosque Inc. will have as its religious base the religion of Islam which will be designed to propagate the moral reformation necessary to up the level of the so-called Negro community by eliminating the vices and other evils that destroy the moral fiber of the community—this is the religious base. But the political philosophy of the Muslim Mosque will be black nationalism, the economic philosophy will be black nationalism, and the social philosophy will be black nationalism. And by political philosophy I mean we still believe in the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s solution as complete separation. The 22,000,000 so-called Negroes should be separated completely from America and should be permitted to go back home to our African homeland which is a long-range program; so the short-range program is that we must eat while we’re still here, we must have a place to sleep, we have clothes to wear, we must have better jobs, we must have better education; so that although our long-range political philosophy is to migrate back to our African homeland, our short-range program must involve that which is necessary to enable us to live a better life while we are still here. We must be in complete control of the politics of the so-called Negro community; we must gain complete control over the politicians in the so-called Negro community, so that no outsider will have any voice in the so-called Negro community. We’ll do it ourselves.

Spellman: Whom do you hope to draw from in organizing this political movement—what kind of people?

Malcolm X: All—we’re flexible—a variety. But our accent will be upon youth. We’ve already issued a call for the students in the colleges and universities across the country to launch their own independent studies of the race problem in he country and then bring their analyses and their suggestions for a new approach back to us so that we can devise an action program geared to their thinking. The accent is on youth because the youth have less at stake in this corrupt system and therefore can look at it more objectively, whereas the adults usually have a stake in this corrupt system and they lose their ability to look at it objectively because of their stake in it.

Spellman: Do you expect to draw from the Garveyite groups?

Malcolm X: All groups—Nationalist, Christians, Muslims, Agnostics, Atheists, anything. Everybody who is interested in solving the problem is given an invitation to become actively involved with either suggestions or ideas or something.

Spellman: Will the organization be national?

Malcolm X: National? I have gotten already an amazing number of letters from student groups at college campuses across the country expressing a desire to become involved in a united front in this new idea that we have.

Spellman: What kind of coalition do you plan to make? Can whites join the Muslim Mosque Inc.?

Malcolm X: Whites can’t join us. Everything that whites join that Negroes have they end up out-joining the Negroes. The whites control all Negro organizations that they can join—they end up in control of those organizations. If whites want to help us financially we will accept their financial help, but we will never let them join us.

Spellman: Then black leadership is necessary?

Malcolm X: Absolutely black leadership.

Spellman: Will you work with the so-called “established” civil rights organizations?

Malcolm X: Well, we will work with them in any area and on any objective that doesn’t conflict with our own political, economic, and social philosophy which is black nationalism. I might add that I was invited to attend a civil rights group meeting where all of the various civil rights organizations were present and I was invited to address them in Chester, Pennsylvania. Gloria Richardson was there; Landrey, the head of the Chicago School Boycott, was there; Dick Gregory was there; many others were there; the Rochedale movement was there. Now my address to them was designed to show them that if they would expand their civil rights movement to a human rights movement it would internationalize it. Now, as a civil rights movement, it remains within the confines of American domestic policy and no African independent nations can open up their mouths on American domestic affairs, whereas if they expanded the civil rights movement to a human rights movement then they would be eligible to take the case of the Negro to the United Nations the same as the case of the Angolans is in the UN and the case of the South Africans is in the UN. Once the civil rights movement is expanded to a human rights movement our African brothers and our Asian brothers and Latin American brothers can place it on the agenda at the General Assembly that is coming up this year and Uncle Sam has no more say-so in it then. And we have friends outside the UN—700,000,000 Chinese who are ready to die for human rights.

Spellman: Do you intend to collaborate with such other groups as labor unions or socialist groups or any other groups?

Malcolm X: We will work with anybody who is sincerely interested in eliminating injustices that Negroes suffer at the hands of Uncle Sam.

Spellman: What is your evaluation of the civil rights movement at this point?

Malcolm X: It has run its—it’s at the end of its leash.

Spellman: What groups do you consider most promising?

Malcolm X: I know of no group that is promising unless it’s radical. If it’s not radical it is in no way involved effectively in the present struggle.

Spellman: Some local civil rights leaders have said they’d welcome your support, some national leaders have said they want nothing to do with you, what is your reaction?

Malcolm X: Well, the local civil rights leaders are usually involved right in the midst of the situation. They see it as it is and they realize that it takes a combination of groups to attack the problem most effectively and, also, most local civil rights leaders have more independence of action and usually they are more in tune and in touch with the people. But the national leaders of the civil rights movement are out of touch with the problem and usually they are paid leaders. The local leaders usually have a job and they lean against the local situation on the side, but the nationally known leaders are paid. They are full-time leaders, they are professional leaders and whoever pays their salary has a great say-so in what they do and what they don’t do, so naturally the ones who pay the salaries of these nationally known Negro leaders are the white liberals and white liberals are shocked and frightened whenever you mention anything about some X’s.

Spellman: What is your attitude toward Christian-Gandhian groups?

Malcolm X: Christian? Gandhian? I don’t go for anything that’s non-violent and turn-the-other-cheekish. I don’t see how any revolution—I’ve never heard of a non-violent revolution or a revolution that was brought about by turning the other cheek, and so I believe that it is a crime for anyone to teach a person who is being brutalized to continue to accept that brutality without doing something to defend himself. If this is what the Christian-Gandhian philosophy teaches then it is criminal—a criminal philosophy.

Spellman: Does the Muslim Mosque Inc. oppose integration and intermarriage?

Malcolm X: We don’t have to oppose integration because the white integrationists themselves oppose it. Proof of which, it doesn’t exist anywhere where white people say they are for it. There’s just no such thing as integration anywhere, but we do oppose intermarriage. We are as much against intermarriage as we are against all of the other injustices that our people have encountered.

Spellman: What is the program for achieving your goals of separation?

Malcolm X: A better word to use than separation is independence. This word separation is misused. The 13 colonies separated from England but they called it the Declaration of Independence; they don’t call it the Declaration of Separation, They call it the Declaration of Independence. When you’re independent of someone you can separate from them. If you can’t separate from them it means you’re not independent of them. So, your question was what?

Spellman: What is your program for achieving your goals of independence?

Malcolm X: When the black man in this country awakens, becomes intellectually mature and able to think for himself, you will then see that the only way he will become independent and recognized as a human being on the basis of equality with all other human beings, he has to have what they have and he has to be doing for himself what others are doing for themselves so the first step is to awaken him to this and that is where the religion of Islam makes him morally more able to rise above the evils and the vices of an immoral society and the political, economic, and social philosophy of black nationalism instills within him the racial dignity and the incentive and the confidence that he needs to stand on his own feet and take a stand for himself.

Spellman: Do you plan to employ any kind of mass action?

Malcolm X: Oh, yes.

Spellman: What kinds?

Malcolm X: We’d rather not say at this time, but we definitely plan to employ mass action.

Spellman: How about the vote—will the Muslim Mosque Inc. run its own candidates or support other candidates?

Malcolm X: Since the political structure is what has been used to exploit the so-called Negroes, we intend to gather together all of the brilliant minds of students, not the adult politicians who are part of the corruption but the students of political science, we intend to gather all of them together and get their findings, get their analyses, get their suggestions, and, out of these suggestions we will devise an approach that will enable us to attack the politicians and the political structure where it hurts the most, in order to get a change.

Spellman: If the Muslim Mosque Inc. joined in a demonstration sponsored by a non-violent organization, and whites countered with violence, how would your organization react?

Malcolm X: We are non-violent only with non-violent people—I’m non-violent as long as somebody else is non-violent—as soon as they get violent they nullify my non-violence.

Spellman: A lot of leaders of other organizations have said they would welcome your help but they qualify that by saying “if you follow our philosophy.” Would you work with them under these circumstances?

Malcolm X: We can work with all groups in anything but at no time will we give up our right to defend ourselves. We’ll never become involved in any kind of action that deprives us of our right to defend ourselves if we are attacked.

Spellman: How would the Muslim Mosque Inc. handle a Birmingham, Danville, or Cambridge—what do you think should have been done?

Malcolm X: In Birmingham, since the government has proven itself either unable or unwilling to step in and find those who are guilty and bring them to justice, it becomes necessary for the so-called Negro who was the victim to do this himself, and he would be upholding his constitutional rights by so doing, and Article 2 of the Constitution—it says concerning the right to bear arms in the Bill of Rights: “A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Negroes don’t realize this, that they are within their constitutional rights to own a rifle, to own a shotgun, and when the bigoted white supremacists realize that they are dealing with Negroes who are ready to give their lives in defense of life and property, then these bigoted whites will change their whole strategy and their whole attitude.

Spellman: You’ve said this will be the most violent year in the history of race relations in America. Elaborate.

Malcolm X: Yes. Because the Negro has already given up on non-violence. This new-thinking Negro is beginning to realize that when he demonstrates for what the government says are his rights then the law should be on his side. Anyone standing in front of him reclaiming his rights is breaking the law. Now, you’re not going to have a law-breaking element inflicting violence upon Negroes who are trying to implement the law, so that when they begin to see this, like this, they are going to strike back. In 1964 you’ll find Negroes will strike back, there never will be non-violence anymore, that has run out.

Spellman: What is your evaluation of Monroe?

Malcolm X: I’m not too up on the situation in Monroe, N.C. I do know that Robert Williams became an exile from this country simply because he was trying to get our people to defend themselves against the Klu Klux Klan and other white supremacist elements, and also May Mallory was given 20 years or something like that because she was also trying to fight the place of our people down there; so this gives you an idea of what happens in a democracy—in a so-called democracy—when people try to implement that democracy.

Spellman: You often use the word revolution, is there a revolution underway in America now?

Malcolm X: There hasn’t been. Revolution is like a forest fire. It burns everything in its path. The people who are involved in a revolution don’t become a part of the system—they destroy the system, they change the system. The genuine word for a revolution is Umwälzung which means a complete overturning and a complete change and the Negro Revolution is no revolution because it condemns the system and then asks the system that it has condemned to accept them into their system. That’s not a revolution—a revolution changes the system, it destroys the system and replaces it with a better one. It’s like a forest fire like I said—it burns everything in its path and the only way to stop a forest fire from burning down your house is to ignite a fire that you control and use it against the fire that is burning out of control. What the white man in America has done, he realizes that there is a Black Revolution all over the world—a non-white revolution all over the world—and he sees it sweeping down upon America and in order to hold it back he ignited an artificial fire which he has named the Negro Revolt and he is using the Negro Revolt against the real Black Revolution that is going on all over this earth.

Spellman: Can the race problem in America be solved under the existing political-economic system?

Malcolm X: No.

Spellman: Well then, what is the answer?

Malcolm X: It answers itself.

Spellman: Can there be any revolutionary change in America while the hostility between black and white working classes exists? Can Negroes do it alone?

Malcolm X: Yes. They’ll never do it with working-class whites. The history of America is that working-class whites have been just as much against not only working-class Negroes, but all Negroes, period, because all Negroes are working class within the caste system. The richest Negro is treated like a working-class Negro. There never has been any good relationship between the working-class Negro and the working-class whites. I just don’t go along with—there can be no worker solidarity until there’s first some black solidarity. There can be no white/black solidarity until there’s first some black solidarity. We have got to get our problems solved first and then if there’s anything left to work on the white man’s problems, good, but I think one of the mistakes Negroes make is this worker solidarity thing. There’s no such thing—it didn’t even work in Russia. Right now it was supposedly solved in Russia but as soon as they got their problems solved they fell out with China.

Spellman: Will the Muslim Mosque Inc. identify with non-white revolutionary movements in Africa, Asia, and Latin America?

Malcolm X: We are all brothers of oppression and today brothers of oppression are identified with each other all over the world.

Spellman: Is there anything else you want to say?

Malcolm X: No. I’ve said enough—maybe I’ve said too much.

Malcolm X at Harvard University (March 18, 1964)

Nineteen hundred sixty-four will probably be the most explosive year that America has yet witnessed on the racial front; primarily because the black people of this country during 1963 saw nothing but failure behind every effort they made to get what the country was supposedly on record for. Today the black people in this country have become frustrated, disenchanted, disillusioned and probably more set for action now than ever before-not the kind of action that has been set out for them in the past by some of their supposedly liberal white friends, but the kind of action that will get some kind of immediate results. As the moderator has pointed out, the time that we’re living in now and that we are facing now is not an era where one who is oppressed is looking toward the oppressor to give him some system or form of logic or reason. What is logical to the oppressor isn’t logical to the oppressed. And what is reason to the oppressor isn’t reason to the oppressed. The black people in this country are beginning to realize that what sounds reasonable to those who exploit us doesn’t sound reasonable to us. There just has to be a new system of reason and logic devised by us who are at the bottom, if we want to get some results in this struggle that is called “the Negro revolution.”

Not only is it going to be an explosive year on the racial front; it is going to be an explosive year on the political front. This year it will be impossible to separate one from the other. The politicking of the politicians in 1964 will probably do more to bring about racial explosion than any other factor, because this country has been under the rule of the politicians. When they want to get elected to office they come into the so-called Negro community and make a lot of promises that they don’t intend to keep. This feeds the hopes of the people in our community, and after the politicians have gotten what they are looking for, they turn their back on the people of our community. This has happened time and time again. The only difference between then and now is that there is a different element in the community; whereas in the past the people of our community were patient and polite, long-suffering and willing to listen to what you call reason, 1964 has produced an element of people who are no longer willing to listen to what you call reason. As I said, what’s reasonable to you has long since ceased to be reasonable to us. And it will be these false promises made by the politicians that will bring about the BOOM.

During the few moments that I have I hope that we can chat in an informal way, because I find that when you are discussing things that are very “touchy,” sometimes it’s best to be informal. And where white people are concerned, it has been my experience that they are extremely intelligent on most subjects until it comes to race. When you get to the racial issue in this country, the whites lose all their intelligence. They become very subjective, and they want to tell us how it should be solved. It’s like Jesse James going to tell the Marshal how he should come after him for the crime that Jesse committed.

I am not a politician. I’m not even a student of politics. I’m not a Democrat. I’m not a Republican. I don’t even consider myself an American. If I could consider myself an American, we wouldn’t even have any problem. It would be solved. Many of you get indignant when you hear a black man stand up and say, “No, I’m not an American.” I see whites who have the audacity, I should say the nerve, to think that a black man is radical and extremist, subversive and seditious if he says, “No, I’m not an American.” But at the same time, these same whites have to admit that this man has a problem.

I don’t come here tonight to speak to you as a Democrat or a Republican or an American or anything that you want me to be. I’m speaking as what I am: one of twenty-two million black people in this country who are victims of your democratic system. They’re the victims of the Democratic politicians, the victims of the Republican politicians. They’re actually the victims of what you call democracy. So I stand here tonight speaking as a victim of what you call democracy. And you can understand what I’m saying if you realize it’s being said through the mouth of a victim; the mouth of one of the oppressed, not through the mouth and eyes of the oppressor. But if you think we’re sitting in the same chair or standing on the same platform, then you won’t understand what I’m talking about. You’d expect me to stand up here and say what you would· say if you were standing up here. And I’d have to be out of my mind.

Whenever one is viewing this political system through the eyes of a victim, he sees something different. But today these twenty-two million black people who are the victims of American democracy, whether you realize it or not, are viewing your democracy with new eyes. Yesterday our people used to look upon the American system as an American dream. But the black people today are beginning to realize that it is an American nightmare. What is a dream to you is a nightmare to us. What is hope to you has long since become hopeless to our people. And as this attitude develops, not so much on Sugar Hill—although it’s there too—but in the ghetto, in the alley where the masses of our people live...there you have a new situation on your hands. There’s a new political consciousness developing among our people in this country. In the past, we weren’t conscious of the political maneuvering that goes on in this country, which exploits our people politically. We knew something was wrong, but we weren’t conscious of what it was. Today there’s a tendency on the part of this new generation of black people (who have been born and are growing up in this country) to look at the thing not as they wish it were, but as it actually is. And their ability to look at the situation as it is, is what is primarily responsible for the ever-increasing sense of frustration and hopelessness that exists in the so-called Negro community today.

Besides becoming politically conscious, you’ll find that our people are also becoming more aware of the strategic position that they occupy politically. In the past, they weren’t. Just the right to vote was considered something. But today the so-called Negroes are beginning to realize that they occupy a very strategic position. They realize what the new trends are and all of the new political tendencies.

During recent years at election time, when the Governor was running for office, there was call for a recount of votes here in Massachusetts. In Rhode Island it was the same way-in Minnesota, the same thing. Within American politics there is now such a similarity between the two parties that in elections the race is usually close enough to permit almost any single block to swing it one way or the other. Not only is this true in city, county, and state elections, but it’s also true in the national elections, as witness the close race between President Kennedy and Nixon a few years back. And everyone admits that it was the strategic vote of the so-called Negro in this country that put the Kennedy administration in Washington. The position in the political structure of the so-called Negro has become so strategic that whenever any kind of election rolls around now, the politicians are out there trying to win the Negro vote. In trying to win the Negro vote, they make a whole lot of promises and build up his hopes. But they always build him up for a letdown. By being constantly built up for a letdown, the Negro is now becoming very angry at the white man. And in his anger the Muslims come along and talk to him. Yet instead of the white man blaming himself for the anger of the Negro, he again has the audacity to blame us. When we warn you how angry the Negro is becoming, you, instead of thanking us for giving you a little warning, try to accuse us of stirring up the Negro. Don’t you know that if your house is on fire and I come to warn you that your house is burning, you shouldn’t accuse me of setting the fire! Thank me rather for letting you know what’s happening, or what’s going to happen, before it’s too late.

When these new trends develop in the so-called Negro in America, making the so-called Negro aware of his strategic position politically, he becomes aware too of what he’s not getting in return. He realizes that his vote puts the governor in office, or the mayor in office, or the president in office. But he’s beginning to see also that although his vote is the vital factor that determines who will sit in these seats, the last one those politicians try to help is the so-called Negro.

Proof of which: Everyone admits that it was the Negro vote that put Kennedy in the White House. Yet four years have passed and the present administration is just now getting around to civil rights legislation. In its fourth year of office it finally passes some kind of civil rights legislation, designed supposedly to solve the problem of the so-called Negro. Yet that voting element offered decisive support in the national election. I only cite this to show the hypocrisy on the part of the white man in America, whether he be down South or whether he be up here in the North.

Democrats, now after they’ve been in the White House awhile, use an alibi for not having kept their promise to the Negroes who voted for them. They say, “Well, we can’t get this passed or we can’t get that passed.” The present make-up of the Congress is 257 Democrats and only 177 Republicans. Now how can a party of Democrats that received practically the full support of the so-called Negroes of this country and control nearly two-thirds of the seats in Congress give the Negro an excuse for not getting some kind of legislation passed to solve the Negro problem? Where the senators are concerned, there are 67 Democrats and only 33 Republicans; yet these Democrats are going to try to pass the buck to the Republicans after the Negro has put the Democrats in office. Now I’m not siding with either Democrats or Republicans. I’m just pointing out the deceit on the part of both when it comes to dealing with the Negro. Although the Negro vote put the Democratic Party where it is, the Democratic Party gives the Negro nothing; and the Democrats offer as an excuse that the fault lies with the Dixie-crats. What do you call them Dixie-crats or Dixo-crats or Demo-Dixo-crats!

Look at the shrewd deceptive manner in which they deal with the Negro. A Dixo-crat is a Democrat. You can call them by whatever name you wish, but you have never seen a situation where the Dixie-crats kick the Democrats out of the party. Rather the Democrats kick the Dixiecrats out of their party if there is ever any cleavage. You oftentimes find the Dixie-crats “cussing out” the Democrats, but you never find the Democrats disassociating themselves from the Dixie-crats. They are together and they use this shrewd maneuvering to trick the Negro. Now there are some young Negroes appearing on the scene, and it is time for those who call themselves Democrats to realize that when the Negro looks at a Democrat, he sees a Democrat. Whether you call him a Dixo-Democrat or a Demo-Dixie-crat, he’s the same thing.

One of the reasons that these Dixie-crats occupy such a powerful position in Washington, D.C., is that they have seniority. By reason of their seniority and primarily because they have denied the local Negro his right to vote, they hold sway over key committees in Washington. You call it a system based on democracy, yet you can’t deny that the most powerful men in this government are from the South. The only reason they’re in positions of power is because the Negroes in their area are deprived of their constitutional right to vote. But the Constitution says that when at any time the people of a given area are denied their right to vote, the representatives of that area are supposed to be expelled from their seat. You don’t need any new legislation; it’s right in front of you already. The only reason the politicians want new legislation is to use it to further trick the Negro. All they have to do is to go by that thing they call the Constitution. It needs no more bills, it needs no more amendments, it needs no more anything. All it needs is a little sincere application.

As with the South, the North knows its own bypass for the Constitution, which goes by the name of “gerrymandering.” Some fellows gain control in the so-called Negro community and then change voting lines every time the Negro begins to get too powerful numerically. The technique is different from that in Mississippi. There is no denying the Negro the right to vote outright, as in Mississippi. The Northern way is more shrewd and subtle; but whether victim of the Northern way or the Southern method, the Negro ends up with no political power whatsoever. Now, I may not be putting this in language which you’re used to, but I’m quite sure that you get the point. Whenever you give the Negro in the South the right to vote, his Constitutional right to vote, it will mean an automatic change in the entire representation from the South. Were he able to exercise his right, some of the most powerful and influential figures in Washington, D.C., would not now be in the Capitol. A large Negro vote would change the foreign policy as well as the domestic policy of this government. Therefore the only valid approach toward revolutionizing American policy is to give to the Negro his right to vote. Once that is done, the entire future course of things must change.

I might say this is how we look at it—how the victims look at it, a very crude and what you might call pessimistic view. But I should rather prefer it as a realistic view. Now what is our approach towards solving this? Many of you have probably just recently read that I am no longer an active member in the Nation of Islam, although I am myself still a Muslim. My religion is still Islam, and I still credit the Honorable Elijah Muhammad with being responsible for everything I know and everything that I am. In New York we have recently founded the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated, which has as its base the religion of Islam, the religion of Islam because we have found that this religion creates more unity among our people than any other type of philosophy can do. At the same time, the religion of Islam is more successful in eliminating the vices that exist in the so-called Negro community, which destroy the moral fiber of the so-called Negro community.

So with this religious base, the difference between the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated, and the Nation of Islam is probably this: We have as our political philosophy, Black Nationalism; as our economic philosophy, Black Nationalism; and as our social philosophy, Black Nationalism. We believe that the religion of Islam combined with Black Nationalism is all that is needed to solve the problem that exists in the so-called Negro community. Why?

The only real solution to our problem, just as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad has taught us, is to go back to our homeland and to live among our own people and develop it so we’ll have an independent nation of our own. I still believe this. But that is a long- range program. And while our people are getting set to go back home, we have to live here in the meantime. So in the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s long-range program, there’s also a short-range program: the political philosophy which teaches us that the black man should control the politics of his own community. When the black man controls the politics and the politicians in his own community, he can then make them produce what is good for the community. For when a politician in the so-called Negro community is controlled by a political machine outside, seldom will that politician ever do what is necessary to bring up the standard of living or to solve the problems that exist in that community. So our political philosophy is designed to bring together the so- called Negroes and to re-educate them to the importance of politics in concrete betterment, so that they may know what they should be getting from their politicians in addition to a promise. Once the political control of the so-called Negro community is in the hands of the so- called Negro, then it is possible for us to do something towards correcting the evils and the ills that exist there.

Our economic philosophy of Black Nationalism means that instead of our spending the rest of our lives begging the white man for a job, our people should be re-educated to the science of economics and the part that it plays in our community. We should. be taught just the basic fundamentals: that whenever you take money out of the neighborhood and spend it in another neighborhood, the neighborhood in which you spend it gets richer and richer, and the neighborhood from which you take it gets poorer and poorer. This creates a ghetto, as now exists in every so-called Negro community in this country. If the Negro isn’t spending his money downtown with what we call “the man,” “the man” is himself right in the Negro community. All the stores are run by the white man, who takes the money out of the community as soon as the sun sets. We have to teach our people the importance of where to spend their dollars and the importance of establishing and owning businesses. Thereby we can create employment for ourselves, instead of having to wait to boycott your stores and businesses to demand that you give us a job. whenever the majority of our people begin to think along such lines, you’ll find that we ourselves can best solve our problems. Instead of having to wait for someone to come out of your neighborhood into our neighborhood to tackle these problems for us, we ourselves may solve them.

The social philosophy of Black Nationalism says that we must eliminate the vices and evils that exist in our society, and that we must stress the cultural roots of our forefathers, that will lend dignity and make the black man cease to be ashamed of himself. We have to teach our people something about our cultural roots. We have to teach them something of their glorious civilizations before they were kidnapped by your grandfathers and brought over to this country. Once our people are taught about the glorious civilization that existed on the African continent, they won’t any longer be ashamed of who they are. We will reach back and link ourselves to those roots, and this will make the feeling of dignity come into us; we will feel that as we lived in times gone by, we can in like manner today. If we had civilizations, cultures, societies, and nations hundreds of years ago, before you came and kidnapped us and brought us here, so we can have the same today. The restoration of our cultural roots and history will restore dignity to the black people in this country. Then we shall be satisfied in our own social circles; then we won’t be trying to force ourselves into your social circles. So the social philosophy of Black Nationalism doesn’t in any way involve any anti- anything. However, it does restore to the man who is being taunted his own self-respect. And the day that we are successful in making the black man respect himself as much as he now admires you, he will no longer be breathing down your neck every time you go buy a house somewhere to get away from him.

That is the political, social, and economic philosophy of Black Nationalism, and in order to bring it about, the program that we have in the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated, places an accent on youth. We are issuing a call for students across the country, from coast to coast, to launch a new study of the problem-not a study that is in any way guided or influenced by adults, but a study of their own. Thus we can get a new analysis of the problem, a more realistic analysis. After this new study and more realistic analysis, we are going to ask those same students (by students I mean young people, who having less of a stake to lose, are more flexible and can be more objective) for a new approach to the problem.

Already we have begun to get responses from so- called Negro students from coast to coast, who aren’t actually religiously inclined, but who are nonetheless strongly sympathetic to the approach used by Black Nationalism, whether it be social, economic, or political. And with this new approach and with these new ideas we think that we may open up a new era here in this country. As that era begins to spread, people in this country-instead of sticking under your nose or crying for civil rights-will begin to expand their civil rights plea to a plea for human rights. And once the so-called Negro in this country forgets the whole civil rights issue and begins to realize that human rights are far more important and broad than civil rights, he won’t be going to Washington, D.C., anymore, to beg Uncle Sam for civil rights. He will take his plea for human rights to the United Nations. There won’t be a violation of civil rights anymore. It will be a violation of human rights. Now at this moment, the governments that are in the United Nations can’t step in, can’t involve themselves with America’s domestic policy. But the day the black man turns from civil rights to human rights, he will take his case into the halls of the United Nations in the same manner as the people in Angola, whose human rights have been violated by the Portuguese in South Africa.

You’ll find that you are entering an era now where the black man in this country has ceased to think domestically, or within the bounds of the United States, and he’s beginning to see that this is a world-wide issue and that he needs help from outside. We need help from our brothers in Africa who have won their independence. And when we begin to show them our thinking has expanded to an international scale, they will step in and help us, and you’ll find that Uncle Sam will be in a most embarrassing position. So the only way Uncle Sam can stop us is to get some civil rights passed-right now! For if he can’t take care of his domestic dirt, it’s going to be put before the eyes of the world. Then you’ll find that you’ll have nobody on your side, whatsoever, other than, perhaps, a few of those Uncle Toms-and they’ve already out-lived their time.

* * *

Moderator: I suggest we follow this format: We will have reactions and responses to what Malcolm X has said from the members of the panel, then give Malcolm X a chance to discuss their views. The first member of the panel to address us will be Professor James Q. Wilson, who has written an important book about Negro politics in Chicago. At present, Professor Wilson is Associate Professor of Government at Harvard and also Director of the Joint Center for Urban Studies. The second speaker this evening will be Dr. Martin L. Kilson. Dr. Kilson is Lecturer on Government at Harvard, and will soon publish his first book, Political Change in a West African Slate.

[Panel members responnd.]

Moderator: Mr. X, I wonder if you’d like to reply to either Professor Wilson or Dr. Kilson.

Malcolm X: As I said in my opening statement, I’m not a student of politics nor a politician, but I did learn a lot listening to the speakers. Mr. Wilson pointed out very decisively that politics won’t solve the problem...this is what I got out of what he said...the politicians can’t do it. In fact I can see now why the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said that complete separation is the only answer. For what I got from what he was saying is that Uncle Sam sees no hope within his political system of solving this problem that has become so complex that you can hardly even describe it. And this is why I said that we are issuing a call to youth, primarily, to get some new ideas and a new direction. The adults are more confused than the problem itself. It will take a whole generation of new people to approach this problem.

I would not like to leave the impression that I have ever, in any way, proposed a Negro party. Whoever entertains that thought is very much misinformed. We have never at any time advocated any kind of Negro party. The idea that I have been trying to convey is that Black Nationalism is our political philosophy. I didn’t mention “party.” By Black Nationalism I meant a political philosophy that makes the black man more conscious of the importance of his doing something to control his own destiny. The political philosophy maintained now by most black people in this country seems to me to leave their destiny in the hands of someone who doesn’t even look like them. So, you see, the political philosophy of Black Nationalism has nothing to do with party. It is designed to make the black man develop some kind of consciousness or awareness of the importance of his shaping his own future, instead of leaving it to some segregationists in Washington, D.C., who come from the North as well as from the South. In pointing out that we are putting an accent on youth, we wish to let you know that our minds are wide open. We don’t think we have the answer, but we are open-minded enough to try to seek the answer not from these old hicks, whom I think have gone astray, but from the youth. For the young may approach the problem from a new slant and perhaps come up with something that nobody else has thought of yet.

In reply to Dr. Kilson, who pointed out how Marcus Garvey failed: Marcus Garvey failed only because his movement was infiltrated by Uncle Toms, sent in by the government as well as by other bodies to maneuver him into a position wherein the government might have him sent to Atlanta, Georgia, put in a penitentiary, then deported, and his movement destroyed. But Marcus Garvey never failed. Marcus Garvey was the one who gave a sense of dignity to the black people in this country. He organized one of the largest mass movements that ever existed in this country; and his entire philosophy of organizing and attracting Negroes was based on going-back-to-Africa, which proves that the only mass movement which ever caught on in this country was designed to appeal to what the masses really felt. More of them then preferred to go back home than to stay here in this country and continue to beg the power structure for something they knew they would never get. Garvey did not fail. Indeed, it was Marcus Garvey’s philosophy that inspired the Nkrumah fight for the independence of Ghana from the colonialism that was imposed on it by England. It is also the same Black Nationalism that has been spreading throughout Africa and that has brought about the emergence of the present independent African states. Garvey never failed. Garvey planted the seed which has popped up in Africa-everywhere you look, and although they’re still trying to stamp it out in Angola, in South Africa, and in other places, you will soon be able to see for yourselves whether or not Garvey failed. He may have failed in America, but he didn’t fail in Africa; and when Africa succeeds, you’ll find that you have a new situation on your hands here in America.

I can’t abide anyone referring to Black Nationalism as any kind of racism. Whenever white people get together they don’t call it racism. The European Common Market is for Europeans; it excludes everyone else. In that case you don’t call it racism; all the numerous blocks and groups and syndicates and cliques that the Western nations have formed are never referred to as racist. But when we dark people want to form some kind of united effort to solve our problem, either you or somebody you have brainwashed comes up with “racism.” We don’t call it racism; we call it brotherhood. To note just one more small point: it is true that a large middle-class group of so-called Negroes has developed in this country, and you may think that these Negroes are satisfied or that they want to stay here because they have a “stake.” This is the popular misconception. The middle-class Negro in this country is almost more frustrated, disillusioned, and disenchanted than the Negro in the alley. Why? The Negro in the alley does not even think about integrating with you because he knows that he hasn’t enough money to go where you are in control. So it doesn’t enter his mind; he’s less frustrated when he knows it’s impossible. But this middle-class Negro, sharp as a tack with his Harvard accent and with his pocket full of your money, thinks he should be able to go everywhere. Indeed, he should be able to go everywhere, so he will try.

Moderator: I will take questions from the floor.

Question: I have a question for Mr. Malcolm X. “What is your view of the Freedom Now Party, which is certainly a third party movement? How do you feel about this alternative way of solving the Negro problem?

Malcolm X: I have met Negroes of the Freedom Now Party, all of whom seem to be very militant. They are young and militant and less likely to compromise. For these reasons it offers more hope than other alternatives being dangled in front of the so-called Negro. I couldn’t say I would endorse the Freedom Now Party, but my mind is wide open to anything that will help gain progress. In addition, members of the Freedom Now Party seem to be more flexible than members of the Democratic and Republican parties. I don’t think anything can be worse than the Democrats and Republicans.

Question: Mr. Malcolm X, do you support a bloody revolution and, if not, what kind do you have in mind, especially when the Negro is at a numerical disadvantage?

Malcolm X: Don’t tell me about a six-to-one disadvantage. I agree it is a six-to-one disadvantage when you think in terms of America. But in the world the nonwhite people have you at an eleven-to-one disadvantage. We black people consider ourselves a part of that vast body of dark people who outnumber the whites, and we don’t regard ourselves as a minority.

Question: Mr. Malcolm X, you said the type of civil rights agitation we see now has not altered the morality of white people. Could you comment on that?

Malcolm X: When exposed to the methods of civil rights groups, whites remain complacent. You couldn’t appeal to their ethical sense or their sense of legality. But, on the, other hand, when they hear the analysis of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, whites become more sharply attuned to the problem. They become more conscious of the problem. You can appeal to what intelligence whites have. Let the black man speak his mind so that the white man really knows how he feels. At the same time, let the white man speak his mind. Let everyone put his facts on the table. Once you put the facts on the table, it’s possible to arrive at a solution.

The civil rights movement has put the white man in a position where he has to take a stand contrary to his intelligence. Many whites who do not support integration are afraid to say so when face to face with a Negro for fear the Negro will call him a bigot or a racist. So that even though a white in his intelligence can see that this forced integration will never work, he’s afraid to say this to a black man; whereas if the white could speak his mind to the black man, he might wake that man up. My contention is that the approach used by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is more realistic. A white man can speak his mind to a Muslim, and a Muslim is going to speak his mind to a white man. Once you establish this honest, sincere, realistic communication, you’ll get a solution to the problem. But don’t you give me that you love me and make me do the same thinking when there’s nothing in our backgrounds nor anything around us which in any way gives either of us reason to love each other. Let’s be real!

A Declaration of Independence (March 12, 1964)

Because 1964 threatens to be a very explosive year on the racial front, and because I myself intend to be very active in every phase of the American Negro struggle for human rights, I have called this press conference this morning in order to clarify my own position in the struggle—especially in regard to politics and nonviolence.

I am and always will be a Muslim. My religion is Islam. I still believe that Mr. Muhammad’s analysis of the problem is the most realistic, and that his solution is the best one. This means that I too believe the best solution is complete separation, with our people going back home, to our own African homeland.

But separation back to Africa is still a long-range program, and while it is yet to materialize, 22 million of our people who are still here in America need better food, clothing, housing, education and jobs right now. Mr. Muhammad’s program does point us back homeward, but it also contains within it what we could and should be doing to help solve many of our own problems while we are still here.

Internal differences within the Nation of Islam forced me out of it. I did not leave of my own free will. But now that it has happened, I intend to make the most of it. Now that I have more independence of action, I intend to use a more flexible approach toward working with others to get a solution to this problem.

I do not pretend to be a divine man, but I do believe in divine guidance, divine power, and in the fulfillment of divine prophecy. I am not educated, nor am I an expert in any particular field—but I am sincere, and my sincerity is my credential.

I’m not out to fight other Negro leaders or organizations. We must find a common approach, a common solution, to a common problem. As of this minute, I’ve forgotten everything bad that the other leaders have said about me, and I pray they can also forget the many bad things I’ve said about them.

The problem facing our people here in America is bigger than all other personal or organizational differences. Therefore, as leaders, we must stop worrying about the threat that we seem to think we pose to each other’s personal prestige, and concentrate our united efforts toward solving the unending hurt that is being done daily to our people here in America.

I am going to organize and head a new mosque in New York City, known as the Muslim Mosque Incorporated. This gives us a religious base, and the spiritual force necessary to rid our people of the vices that destroy the moral fiber of our community.

Our political philosophy will be black nationalism. Our economic and social philosophy will be black nationalism. Our cultural emphasis will be black nationalism.

Many of our people aren’t religiously inclined, so the Muslim Mosque Incorporated, will be organized in such manner to provide for the active participation of all Negroes in our political, economic, and social programs, despite their religious or non-religious beliefs.

The political philosophy of black nationalism means: we must control the politics and the politicians of our community. They must no longer take orders from outside forces. We will organize, and sweep out of office all Negro politicians who are puppets for the outside forces.

Our accent will be upon youth: we need new ideas, new methods, new approaches. We will call upon young students of political science throughout the nation to help us. We will encourage these young students to launch their own independent study, and then give us their analysis and their suggestions. We are completely disenchanted with the old, adult, established politicians. We want to see some new faces—more militant faces.

Concerning the 1964 elections: we will keep our plans on this a secret until a later date—but we don’t intend for our people to be the victims of a political sellout again in 1964.

The Muslim Mosque Incorporated, will remain wide open for ideas and financial aid from all quarters. Whites can help us, but they can’t join us. There can be no black-white unity until there is first some black unity. There can be no workers’ solidarity until there is first some racial solidarity. We cannot think of uniting with others, until after we have first united among ourselves. We cannot think of being acceptable to others until we have first proven acceptable to ourselves. One can’t unite bananas with scattered leaves.

Concerning nonviolence: it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law.

In areas where our people are the constant victims of brutality, and the government seems unable or unwilling to protect them, we should form rifle clubs that can be used to defend our lives and our property in times of emergency, such as happened last year in Birmingham; Plaquemine, Louisiana; Cambridge, Maryland; and Danville, Virginia. When our people are being bitten by dogs, they are within their rights to kill those dogs.

We should be peaceful, law-abiding—but the time has come for the American Negro to fight back in self-defense whenever and wherever he is being unjustly and unlawfully attacked.

If the government thinks I am wrong for saying this, then let the government start doing its job.

A Visit From the FBI (February 4, 1964)

FBI Agent: Morning, how do you do. We are with the FBI. You have a couple minutes? We’d like to talk to you.


Malcolm X: Come on in.


FBI Agent: I am sorry, did we get you up?

Malcolm X: I was on the telephone. Your name is?

FBI Agent: Beckwith.


Malcolm X: And your name is.?

FBI Agent: Fulton.


Malcolm X: Which office are you from?


FBI Agent: From New York. There’s only one out here. We have two problems we would like to talk to you about. One...why don’t you take the article and read it. You might have been called by a couple of reporters, is that right?

Malcolm X: Yes.

FBI Agent: What did they quote you saying, nonsense?

Malcolm X: I cussed them out. What paper is this from?

FBI Agent: One of the New York ones, I don’t know, I think the Times, I am not sure. The problem in this connection is that we have every reason to believe that this fella lied to us when he gave us the original.

Malcolm X: You should.

FBI Agent: Now, of course, that is a violation of the federal law, so he is in jail awaiting trial. Now the U.S. attorney up there preparing the case wanted you interviewed to disprove part of his story which isn’t here; that he attended a meeting, I believe Monday or Tuesday, the fourteenth, in Rochester, from about seven or eight until ten or ten-fifteen at night, at which you were there. Of course, you were very well known, naturally, and how he got your name, I don’t know. It is part of our proof, see, showing that you in fact were not there. And, if that is the case, that was on Tuesday night, wasn’t it?

Malcolm X: Yes, on January 14. Ordinarily, I could have been anywhere, but it just so happens that on that night I was at the International Hotel, out here at the airport, Kennedy Airport, with a writer, Alex Haley, who writes for the Reader’s Digest. You can get his number from the Reader’s Digest, he lives in Rome, New York.

FBI Agent: Yes, I have heard his name. Doubleday is doing a book. He wrote us a letter.

Malcolm X: Right, he wrote a letter.

FBI Agent: In fact, copies are right here. When that letter came in, he said that Egypt was trying to interview him about something. Now, they had been down to where he formerly lived. We had no information on it other than the person who got the letter. So you were with him that night?

Malcolm X: Yes, I was with him, and strange as it may seem, I got a call the next day from a lawyer downtown. Someone had apparently gotten hit over here on Junction Boulevard and Northern Boulevard and my license number had been turned in and he was saying it was I.

FBI Agent: Do you know the lawyer’s name?

Malcolm X: Epstein or something.


FBI Agent: You didn’t get his address or anything?

Malcolm X: No, but as far as I can recall, his name was Epstein. So, luckily, I was able to tell them where I was and Haley was with me until two o’clock in the morning. I picked him up at the airport.

FBI Agent: That would encompass the entire time. What time did you leave there?


Malcolm X: Must have been around seven o’clock.

FBI Agent: You said you picked him up at the airport. Had
 he flown in from Rome?


Malcolm X: No, he flew in from Chicago. He was doing a story on Fuller for the Digest, for the Digest or Playboy.

FBI Agent: You would have no objection to us referring to our conversation if it is necessary to ask him to corroborate your story, would you?

Malcolm X: No. It was quite fortunate, frankly, that I was tied up with him that night, because I could have been anywhere.

FBI Agent: Well, of course, as you know, we are aware of most of your activities and that is true. That is one reason why we couldn’t, on our own eliminate the fact that you were in fact in or not in Rochester.

Malcolm X: I was here.

FBI Agent: Had you been in Rochester at any time around this day?

Malcolm X: I haven’t been in Rochester in probably six months.

FBI Agent: Do you know this fella, Booker, by any chance?

Malcolm X: No.


FBI Agent: Does that name mean anything to you?

Malcolm X: No.


FBI Agent: Philip Alpert?


Malcolm X: I know a lot of people that I wouldn’t know by name.


FBI Agent: Well, he used the name up there, Alpert Leyton, spelled L-E-Y-T-O-N, he originally used it.

Malcolm X: I don’t know it. What did he say, somebody had a meeting up there?

FBI Agent: Well, basically, his information, when he gave it at first, we couldn’t prove or disprove it, so that caused quite a commotion with us. Someone is going to assassinate the President. I mean, that is of some significance. He attended a meeting. Now this is his story, briefly. On Tuesday night from, I don’t know the times, eight to ten, something like that, he was at a meeting of the Muslims in Rochester. He couldn’t tell us the exact place, he was blindfolded and taken there, which, of course, is not the way you people, I know, usually do things. This is his story. Ten were present, including you, and the assassination was planned, not the details, but it was planned to the extent that the ten people would get down in two cars—five each—to Washington, leaving late that night or early thy next morning. Now beyond there, the story fizzles out as to how they were going to do it. They had no arms as far as he knew. But, they were definitely going down. Well, of course, when we got this over the phone, you know, my God, you know. So when we kept talking to him and he finally admitted, he said no, it was false. Of course, then we threw him in jail for fraud against the government. That is the kind of case—that is the statute under which we have authority to bring him before the commission. He couldn’t make bail, so, of course, he went to trial and the trial is coming up shortly. I don’t know when the trial will be. Now you’d be put in the position, if necessary—of course, this is between you and me—in other words, I don’t know that you would even be called, but you would be a government witness in this case. Of course you would be protected by a subpoena and of course any expenses.

Malcolm X: I shouldn’t see where I have to get involved in something like this. Let me tell you what it is. It is so ridiculous that what it does, actually what it does...

FBI Agent: I will tell you the first reply that I made was that it was made up probably for that purpose, to embarrass your organization.

Malcolm X: Certainly that is what it sounds like to me. It is so ridiculous, number one, that it sounds like to me that it was something that was invented even though it would be denied, it would still serve as a propaganda thing.

FBI Agent: I agree; My first reaction was that it is possible that some people are going to do that, but not the Muslims.

Malcolm X: No.

FBI Agent: Of course, that doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility of trying to do something about it. This information of yours, seems as how it is a “fraud against the Government” case, the way we record the information is at your discretion. We, of course, will make a memorandum of our conversation on this point, unless you would prefer to have it written out and you sign it.

Malcolm X: No, I won’t sign anything.

FBI Agent: It is entirely up to you. I will phrase it you prefer not to give any signed statement in this matter. You have no objection to us recording that?

Malcolm X: I don’t see why I should have to get in it.


FBI Agent: You don’t, but I have to ask you a few questions. May I take a moment here to get a detail straightened out? Now, as particular to that night of the fourteenth, you said you picked Mr. Haley up?

Malcolm X: Yes.

FBI Agent: Was that the International Airport you picked him up at?

Malcolm X: Yes.


FBI Agent: He came into that airport?


Malcolm X: Yes. And then.
..

FBI Agent: And then you went to the International Hotel?


Malcolm X: Checked in under Alex Haley, under his name. I wasn’t checked in there. He had to work. It was about 7 P.M.

FBI Agent: About 7 P.M.?


Malcolm X: Yes, about 7 P.M.


FBI Agent: You remained with him until.


Malcolm X: About two o’clock in the morning. A waiter came in twice. One time around eight and another time around one o’clock.

FBI Agent: You didn’t know his name.


Malcolm X: No. It would be easy to check.


FBI Agent: You remained there until two and then you came home?


Malcolm X: Right, I came home.

FBI Agent: After meeting with Mr. Haley you spent the rest of the night there?

Malcolm X: I haven’t been in touch with him since I left. I don’t know what time he left the next day.

FBI Agent: He was scheduled to leave the next day by plane, I presume?

Malcolm X: Most likely.

FBI Agent: You can see one of the big problems we have on a thing like this. It is trying to prove a negative, so to speak.

Malcolm X: But you know, you have people in Washington who are past masters for making positive out of negative.

FBI Agent: No comment. In all probability, this is the type of party who is going to go up and say “I plead guilty.” But if he doesn’t and goes to trial then it is up to us to show that his story was false because that is the charge. He furnished us false information. And, that in fact he knew it was false—which he has already admitted to us.

Malcolm X: What would be his purpose in making a statement like this?

FBI Agent: I will tell you his reason between us, now I don’t know what it is, the reason is that he wanted to test the ability of the government agency. He was worried since President Kennedy’s assassination that we may not be on the ball. I don’t know.

Malcolm X: Well, was he a Negro?

FBI Agent: Yes, from Baltimore. He gave us a rather ridiculous story. He wanted to test the capabilities of making any preparations. Now, that is what he said. Of course, we right from the start were pretty much aware that he was wrong, he made up a story. He said he joined the Muslims, and the blindfold bit.

Malcolm X: Has he ever been a Muslim?

FBI Agent: We don’t know for sure. As far as we know, no. He claims that he joined in Baltimore. He said he joined and then became a junior dragon.

Malcolm X: What is that supposed to be?

FBI Agent: We don’t know. Of course, we know better and you know better, and then afterward, after serving his time as a junior dragon, he then became a dragon. He involved you in several different ways in addition to being there on that night. See, he probably knows your name. I would like to bring this out to you. He said in the summer of ‘63, he was designated by the Baltimore temple as a research specialist to make a study of Negro problems; home, house, family, so forth, in
Baltimore, and as a research specialist in Baltimore it had to have your approval since you were in charge of the entire East Coast of the Nation of Islam at that time. He said you approved his position as a research specialist in Baltimore.

Malcolm X: I have no knowledge of it, although we do need some research.

FBI Agent: Then he said that last summer, with your approval, he was designated the research specialist for the State of New York. That is when he went to Rochester and was doing research of this type in that area. He turned his reports over to Elmer X—he claimed—and then he passed them on to you.

Malcolm X: Elmer X who?

FBI Agent: He said it was Elmer X up there, and the only Elmer X we were acquainted with was Mr. Grant in Buffalo. As you may well be aware of, he was interviewed as a result of some investigation in that area. All members were contacted. He turned his reports over to Elmer X and that was the last he saw of them. Those are the other two positions where he involved you, being named a research specialist for the State of New York with your approval.

Malcolm X: Has he backed up on that score?


FBI Agent: Yes.


Malcolm X: He is a nut.


FBI Agent: Well, not being a psychiatrist
...

Malcolm X: You wouldn’t have to be a psychiatrist. You wouldn’t have to be a policeman to know that someone is breaking the law. Common sense. If you have a knowledge of the law, you know once you are breaking it. And this man is even violating laws of intelligence.

FBI Agent: I think that clears up that. The other problem is probably what you assume we came up for—to obtain any information you want to give us about the Muslims.

Malcolm X: I don’t assume anything.

FBI Agent: That is a very general statement on my part. But, as you know, we follow the activities of the Muslims as best we can but we are always looking for new avenues for information, but who better than the head of the Muslims. At least, up until a month ago or something like that. That substantially is the second reason. We used this, this other thing, it came at a very good time as an excuse to push us out here to talk to you. Several of the fellows talked to you several years ago, as I recall.

Malcolm X: I haven’t spoken to the FBI since 1956. It was about eight years ago.


FBI Agent: Yes, about that. How is your suspension status?


Malcolm X: No one knows but Mr. Muhammad, you’d have to ask him.


FBI Agent: You are still on suspension now? You are not working or teaching now?


Malcolm X: I am still under the suspension.


FBI Agent: That is a temporary thing as far as you know?


Malcolm X: He is the only one who can give out any information. I couldn’t say nothing behind what he would say.

FBI Agent: I think he said it was a temporary suspension. How soon you resume your duties, we would be—as you sure know—interested in having you help us out.

Malcolm X: Help you out doing what? We are always helping out the government. We have been cleaning up crime.

FBI Agent: Fine, fine, fine.

Malcolm X: We help it out more than it helps itself. We are at least able to reform the people who have been made criminals by this society; by the corruption of this society. And, anyway, to help it out other than that, I wouldn’t even know how to begin.

FBI Agent: What we are interested in, basically, are the people who belong. The names of the members.

Malcolm X: From what I understand, you have all of that.

FBI Agent: No comment. The teachings, plans, programs.

Malcolm X: No teaching is more public than ours and I don’t think you will find anybody more blunt in stating it publicly than we do. I don’t think you can go anywhere on this earth and find anybody who expresses their views on matters more candidly than we do.

FBI Agent: I can only agree with you. You are right. The main thing is there is a certain area of responsibility this is getting into our angle of it. What we really want are the names of all those who belong, who they are, identification.

Malcolm X: I don’t even know them.


FBI Agent: You keep no records?


Malcolm X: That is not my job. I am just a preacher.

FBI Agent: But somebody up there keeps the records.


Malcolm X: I don’t know who. I don’t have any knowledge of those kinds of things. With all the responsibilities that I have had, it is difficult for me to worry about names, plus you would insult my intelligence asking me for them. In fact, you would insult your own because it would mean that your own intelligence isn’t heavy enough to weigh me and know in advance what I am going to say when you ask that question.

FBI Agent: Well, without getting into an argument on semantics, you don’t know until you ask.

Malcolm X: There is no semantics. That again goes into psychology.

FBI Agent: We have had people that, not this group in particular, who have been just as vociferous against whatever we are investigating. The Communists make a good case of it. The Communists for twenty years, you know, they hate everything. We’ve been told to investigate. I am going to tell you something—you never know until you ask. That has happened so many times. Sometimes you are convinced, but sometimes...money brings out the information. I don’t intend to insult you here.

Malcolm X: According to the Secretary of the Treasury, this government’s money is in trouble. According to government economists, the dollar itself is in so much trouble a person would be a fool to sell his soul for one of these decreasing dollars.

FBI Agent: I couldn’t agree with you more. You would be a fool to sell your soul even if the dollar were increasing. This has nothing to do with selling your soul. If you’re gonna look at it that way, okay.

Malcolm X: Depends on how you look at it. I frankly believe that what Mr. Muhammad teaches is 100 per cent true. Secondly, I believe that everything he has said will come to pass. I believe it. I believe it more strongly today than I did ten years ago because I have seen too much evidence. But, today, all of your world events that are shaping up, total up to too much evidence toward what he said is coming to pass. World events today would make me stronger in my convictions than they would have made me ten years ago.

FBI Agent: But that is beside the point of what I am trying to get out of you. Fine if that all comes to pass. I have no control of it. All we want to know is the names of the people that are in the organization, and if it is so public and so forth, by your own logic there would seem to be no objection to your saying “I am a Muslim.”

Malcolm X: That part of the tree is the root; I mean, the root is always beneath the ground.

FBI Agent: You don’t have to explain that but I don’t know what you are talking about...Well, would it be fair to say then in answer to a question whether or not you would cooperate with the government in furnishing pertinent information as I have described?

Malcolm X: I say we have always cooperated with them. The Muslims are the most cooperative group in this country with the government in that the Muslims are doing work that the government itself is incapable of doing.

FBI Agent: I say certain information pertinent to our investigation.

Malcolm X: You would have to go to Mr. Muhammad for pertinent information. I don’t have access to pertinent information.

FBI Agent: Then it would be fair here again, to say a denial of your desire to furnish information, any information you might.

Malcolm X: I don’t know what you mean by that.

FBI Agent: Well, the names of the members.

Malcolm X: That is not my department.


FBI Agent: But still you know a lot of names.

Malcolm X: No, I know probably less names than anybody. People I see, I call them brother and sister. I know no names.

FBI Agent: You have no access?

Malcolm X: I don’t ever take on burdens that are not necessary and having names of people that are not necessary to me.

FBI Agent: No, but if you were so disposed to cooperate with us, would you...?

Malcolm X: What do you mean by cooperate?


FBI Agent: You giving us any names that you could get.


Malcolm X: I am not so disposed.


FBI Agent: No, that is my point.


Malcolm X: As I say, we as an organization.


FBI Agent: Well, that is what I am trying to get out of you, whether or not you.


Malcolm X: We as an organization, and I am always an organization, that is why I say we. We cooperate with the government in that we do what they can’t toward correcting the morals of people.

FBI Agent: Of course we are with the FBI, we don’t have any jurisdiction or social interest in the morals of anybody.

Malcolm X: What I mean collectively, the FBI is supposed to be concerned.

FBI Agent: No, not at all.


Malcolm X: Hoover wrote a book here, not long ago.


FBI Agent: He said the public should be...but we investigate many things. Crimes, anything of interest to the government and anything that is assigned to us by the executive President or the Attorney General...to get information, that is the limit. Now, a citizen, sure, very nice anytime you can keep someone from committing a crime. Very nice. But our interest here in coming to you is not as one citizen to another. I mean we are here as representatives of a government agency, asking specific things. I am not talking to you as a neighbor. I don’t know you and you don’t know me.

Malcolm X: There is no government agency that can ever expect to get any information out of me that is in any way detrimental to any religious group or black group for that matter in this country. No government agency.

FBI Agent: Fine.

Malcolm X: Because they should use that same energy to go and find who bombed that church down in Alabama and if these government agencies spent as much time and energy...

FBI Agent: You know what somebody in the south is saying today? If you people would go up north and investigate the Muslims with the same energy you are trying to find this bomb here...

Malcolm X: The Muslims don’t bomb churches.

FBI Agent: I know. I didn’t say that.


Malcolm X: But still, Muslims don’t bomb churches. But still, if we broke the law they would have us in jail tomorrow.

FBI Agent: Let us hope so. Let us hope so.

Malcolm X: If we were a lawbreaking group—no group is more thoroughly investigated than we. No group is more infiltrated with—I call them stool pigeons—than we. Now, if we were breaking the law, the government would know about it and they would have us locked up.

FBI Agent: I wish you were telling the truth. You are partially right. I wish you were entirely right. It would make my job so much easier.

Malcolm X: They need to find the bombers of the church.


FBI Agent: Of course, sure, we need to find a lot of things. We need to find that twenty shiploads of corn oil or soybean oil, but it takes time to do.

Malcolm X: No, it doesn’t take time if you really want to do it.


FBI Agent: You think anybody can find that out?

Malcolm X: They should find out who murdered those little girls down in Birmingham, Alabama. I believe some Negro could go down and find out.

FBI Agent: Well, let’s send them down there. We will be glad to pay them.

Malcolm X: They are waiting for the FBI. But, if they stop relying on the FBI, then they would do it themselves.

FBI Agent: I don’t want to take up too much of your time. What I am interested in is if you want to help us. And, I put it to you bluntly, and I feel that I got a candid, blunt answer.

Malcolm X: That’s the best way to put something like that to me, blunt.

FBI Agent: I don’t want to sneak around the bush and try to trap you into saying anything. There is no point to it, because I have in mind a long-range cooperation between you and me or somebody else.

Malcolm X: Well, see, my religion teaches me that you don’t have any long-range anything because time is running out.

FBI Agent: Well, that is fine. That is all right if you believe it.

Malcolm X: I say that with all due respect.

FBI Agent: I know almost everything you have said at the meetings over the years, I am very familiar with it.

Malcolm X: I think the mistake that white people make when they listen to what we say is they think we are just saying it. We believe it. At least I believe it.


FBI Agent: Some just go for kicks.


Malcolm X: You can put someone on me twenty-four hours a day and they will come back and tell you what I am there for.

FBI Agent: Frankly, one of the reasons we picked this particular time to contact you is because of the suspension.

Malcolm X: The suspension was brought about by my own doing.

FBI Agent: Exactly, but who knows what was in your mind when you did receive the suspension. In other words, bitterness could have entered into it. It would not be illogical for someone to have spent so many years doing something, then being suspended.

Malcolm X: No, it should make one stronger. It should make him realize that law applies to the law enforcer as well as those who are under the enforcement of the enforcer.


FBI Agent: You’ve taken an attitude toward the thing that’s almost unhuman really. You have taken the attitude that Mr. Muhammad wants everyone to take if he chastises them, which is fine. More power to you. But you can see it from our viewpoint, that there is at least a chance and this has happened with other members of the organization suspended for some reason or other that we talked to them.

Malcolm X: Well, I can’t get bitter when I know that what I was reprimanded for was something that I actually did. What kind of person would I be to get bitter?

FBI Agent: Well, that is what we came to find out.

Malcolm X: I know.


FBI Agent: I have no way of knowing unless I ask. Well, that’s all. I don’t have any other specific questions. Do you have anything you wish to say?

Malcolm X: No, only what I said. I am still concerned about that church down there in Birmingham.

FBI Agent: We are too. A lot of men are down there working on it.

Malcolm X: There must be a lot of them down there working on it.

FBI Agent: Offhand, a bombing is one of the hardest types of things to conduct an investigation on. The bomb is left at the church, you don’t know when the bomb was left, you don’t know when it was thrown. When the bomb goes off, the evidence is gone. With the Medgar Evers killing, it was a different situation. The rifle was found, you had some evidence, you have a bullet in the man, the bullet itself. We could take the bullet from Medgar Evers and put it in the rifle that was found on the scene.

Malcolm X: I bet if they bombed one of these cathedrals with some little white children in it you would have them the next day.

FBI Agent: They bombed about a year ago a bomb went off in St. Patrick’s.

Malcolm X: St. Patrick’s here in New York.

FBI Agent: As a matter of fact, not too far from Cardinal Spellman’s quarters. They never found it.

Malcolm X: Didn’t hurt anybody.

FBI Agent: Broke a window or two. A bomb is a bomb. It is immaterial to us whether a bomb breaks a window or knocks a house down. We have the same responsibility. The next time you may be standing or we may be standing there.

Malcolm X: I can understand that because now I see why so many of these underworld bombings take place and you never hear anything about it.

FBI Agent: A man out there recently in Chicago stepped on the starter of his car. A bomb is a very difficult thing to handle unless someone comes forward and gives us some information, like somebody who knew something about it, either one of the perpetrators or somebody who overheard them. I was mentioning there like on the Evers case. The bullet itself you could put in the rifle after it was found. Actually, we could put the Beckwith fingerprints on the rifle itself, we can trace the scope of that rifle, we have things to work with. Just like your wife walks down the street, somebody grabs her purse and runs. Now, by the time you call the policeman and the police get there, it is a very difficult thing to try to work with because there is nothing left in the way of evidence. Your best evidence is to find the purse wherever it is thrown. As you may know, that means somebody takes the valuables out and throws the bag over the fence and that is gone. Somebody breaks into your house, there is a great deal of evidence. You can trace fingerprints. If they spring the lock on your door you can take fingerprints from the door, footprints. After a bombing there is nothing there. The Church is down, you can’t even pick the bomb up and trace it.

Malcolm X: It would be dangerous for you to ever say that publicly because your bombings would increase.

FBI Agent: It has been said before, anybody who knows how to make a bomb knows that. Anybody who has been in the service and gone to their bombing school, of course, there it is used for a different thing. It is one of the reasons why gangland wars have a lot of bombings. Nobody gets killed with a machine gun anymore. You can trace a machine gun. Thirty years ago that was the thing. One thing, machine guns are under regular control now. You can’t sell a machine gun and not report it, any guns, machine guns in particular. Then, of course, you don’t have complete citizen cooperation. You get a lot of resistance. I’m just glad I don’t have to try to find them myself. I am always glad when someone else gets the case.


Malcolm X: When Negroes in the South realize the inability of the law down there to protect them, they are going to start doing something to protect themselves.

FBI Agent: It is perfectly possible.

Malcolm X: You believe it. They are going to start doing something to protect themselves, not because I say so, it is plain common sense.

FBI Agent: They are going to do something to protect themselves. Suppose they get some men from their own church group to start a vigilante...stand guard outside their church to make sure no one throws a bomb. That is one thing, but are they going to go down...because their church was bombed and bomb some other church? That is a different thing. I cannot blame any Negro church, Baptist church in Montgomery or anywhere else, if they have some of their men stand guard at the church to make sure that no one plants a bomb. It is a chance that they have to do it.

Malcolm X: You would do that with your own family and home.

FBI Agent: If somebody was blowing up homes and you read that yours was next, you would stand guard and have some of the brothers here stand guard, but if you would go out because your house was blown up and blow the man’s house across the street up.

Malcolm X: When one society realizes that what happens to another society will happen to it, then that society will take the measures necessary within itself to see that those criminal elements within it don’t go out there and do those things.

FBI Agent: Unfortunately, most people realize that. If it were not true, of course we would have an anarchy and continued violence. You might have a small portion luckily, by small I mean infinitesimal in numbers. Most of the people even in the South realize that. I don’t think you would have gone to Birmingham the Sunday of the bombing and found any white people who were jumping for joy because those four Negro children were killed. Undoubtedly, there would have been some of the perpetrators themselves. Maybe some people who are fanatically inclined with the white citizens and the KKK. But the general run of persons—even those same persons who do not want a Negro to sit beside them on the bus, don’t want a Negro to sit beside them at a lunch counter, or don’t want a Negro to live in the same neighborhood with them—I don’t think even though they felt that way, I don’t think you would find many who would jump for joy because those four young girls died in a bombing or that any church itself sustained bombing.

Malcolm X: Perhaps you are right, but I think that when white society realizes that the same thing can happen to it that happens to other societies because of it, then white society will take measures to see that these other things don’t happen.

FBI Agent: Nobody denies there are injustices in the South and in the North.


Malcolm X: That is my contention. I grew up in white society. I think that they underestimated the feelings of Negroes because Negroes have always shown this long-suffering-type attitude.

FBI Agent: Until recently, I don’t think they so much underestimated as ignored their feelings. I don’t think many white people thirty years ago even thought about Negroes. They say, what do you think about Negroes. I don’t know, I never thought about it.

Malcolm X: The reason they never thought about them is because they underestimated them. In their subconscious minds, they don’t even give the Negro credit for being independent enough to have feelings about certain things.

FBI Agent: I think that is changing.


Malcolm X: But it is not changing fast enough.

FBI Agent: Of course, that is a matter of degree, people will always disagree on that.


Malcolm X: I am not saying the condition is not changing fast enough, the awareness on the part of whites isn’t changing fast enough.

FBI Agent: That is probably the root of the problem. Legislation, laws, etc. make you like white people, make white people like Negroes. There is nothing, really, except education.

Malcolm X: But they are not trying to educate, they are trying to legislate.

FBI Agent: Exactly.

Malcolm X: They are not even going about it in sincerity. The only reason they are trying to legislate is for political reasons. If they were really aware of the degree of dissatisfaction among Negroes and the ability of Negroes sooner or later to do something about it themselves, then you wouldn’t see the politicians playing around, you would see them making a sincere enough effort to educate, hut the only man that you will find doing something along educational lines is Mr. Muhammad. He changes the attitude of the Negro and the average person who has become a Muslim. Although he may appear dogmatic in some of his views on race, you won’t find him going out and getting in trouble with whites. The only time there is any trouble is when somebody initiates some kind of trouble with him. The reason I say this is because in my experience, Negroes who become Muslims are more capable of dealing with white society on their intelligence plane, I even might say on a reciprocal plane, than the Negro who hasn’t been exposed to Mr. Muhammad’s teaching, because the Negro who has been exposed to Mr. Muhammad’s teaching faces facts and the facts are this is a white man and this is a black man. This is a fact, there is nothing derogatory, and when you have to deny that you are a white man, you are in trouble. When you have to deal with a man on the basis of a complete denial of what you are and pretend you are denying what he is, you can’t even talk on that basis, and this is the impasse that the Negro civil rights movements are jockeying for in this white society. They had a boycott yesterday. What did they accomplish? Let me give you an example: I blame the white man for making these Negroes think they are really leaders and they think they have some kind of program. No, they are jockeying him into such a position that you will be so embarrassed in the sight of the world, and after it is all over, you still haven’t solved the problem.

FBI Agent: No, you don’t solve things that way, whether by demonstrations or by laws.

Malcolm X: You notice that we don’t demonstrate.

FBI Agent: My mention of education was on the part of the white people.

Malcolm X: Susskind had a good program last night on Channel 2, about this same thing. But it showed in there that you had some Negroes who moved into a white neighborhood and the repercussions, mental reaction. Many whites tried to band together and act intelligent and they found that they couldn’t do it. It isn’t prejudice, it is their intelligence that won’t enable them to do it. They are not going to let someone live and move into their neighborhood who doesn’t know how to keep the neighborhood up.

FBI Agent: I think that is the big problem rather than the color.

Malcolm X: What programs do you know of going on in the Negro communities now that are showing the Negroes the importance of property and property values? This is not speaking against our people, but you can’t come out of slavery overnight and know what to do with your property. There is no program going on among Negroes today that will show Negroes how to act in a higher society or how to act when given access toward the higher things in a higher society, and now no white person can say it without being called a bigot. This is what I mean. The so-called Negro civil rights leader has the white man in a position where he can’t even show his intelligence without being called a bigot. But in dealing with a Muslim you can at least say what you think, you wouldn’t be called a bigot. If what you say is intelligent, good. If what you say is not intelligent, then it’s not. Then until the two can sit down and approach the problem you will have a problem of getting worse rather than getting better. It is going to be worse in I964 than in 1963, as long as you got these freaks like Rustin who is nothing but a homo who can be projected by the press as a leader of black people, then you are going to have trouble on your hands.

FBI Agent: That is true, and I wish you were right.

Malcolm X: I know I’m right. All they are going to do is come up with what they call programs to give vent to the frustrations of the Negro and you can’t do that but soften. Sooner or later, that Negro is going to be looking for the real thing and then you won’t be able to control him and nothing you say will save him, or please him, or even stop him.

FBI Agent: I agree with you. Not to prolong our talk here, but me ask you this. On occasion, things come up like this of you being in Rochester.

Malcolm X: That is once in a lifetime.

FBI Agent: But frequently we get problems. The United Nations about three years ago, you people were accused of going in the line, but I know you weren’t because I was down there. But, we get inquiries not only from Washington to determine to what extent, if any, the Muslims were active in the picketing of the United Nations. It is important for some people to identify the groups that participate most. Do you have any objection if we contact you on things like that and ask you point- blank are the Muslims involved in this.

Malcolm X: No objection. My telephone number is OL 1- 6320.

FBI Agent: How about that. OL 1-6320.

Malcolm X: That’s like telling you the sun shines from the east.

FBI Agent: I assume we have it, but I will take it down in case we don’t. As you know, we haven’t called you, so I’m not sure. I will limit this. This will not be once a week or once a month, maybe once a year will be the extent of it. But it will save time and trouble at least.

Malcolm X: We don’t picket. If we do picket they know it is us. It is that much difference between us and the others.

FBI Agent: As I say, we were down there. Here again, we are trying to prove a negative. It is not easy. A man sitting in Washington at a desk, when he calls down he...

Malcolm X: I think Washington is a past master, as I said previously, it’s making positives out of negatives and negatives out of positives.

FBI Agent: I will report on my contact with you, for two reasons: one, not to bother you, and two, we clearly indicated that you just wouldn’t give us any information.

Malcolm X: Certainly. You can tell them they insult my intelligence, not only, they insult me, period, if they think I will tell them anything.

FBI Agent: You have the privilege. That is very good. You are not alone. We talk to people every day who hate the government or hate the FBI. That is why they pay money, you know.

Malcolm X: That is not hate, it is incorrect to clarify that as hate. It doesn’t take hate to make a man firm in his convictions. There are many areas to which you wouldn’t give information and it wouldn’t be because of hate. It would be your intelligence and ideals.

FBI Agent: I don’t know of any, but that is all right.

Malcolm X: It has nothing to do with hate, it is based on my own factual...

FBI Agent: Disinclination to cooperate with the government.

Malcolm X: I don’t see where it is disinclination. I don’t even think it could be worded like that. I am looking for the government to cooperate with some of these Negroes. I don’t see any government cooperation in Birmingham or any of these other places.

FBI Agent: Well, you’ll have to see your congressman about that. We don’t work in that area. It would be good and I think in many ways might be of some benefit to your organization if we can eliminate people now on the other hand, it might possibly get a rumor that you are going to—I don’t want to use the wrong word—you say you don’t picket, you say you had a little march in Times Square last...whatever you call it, if we get a rumor on that would you have any objection if I called you?

Malcolm X: No, not at all. I do think you are going to have a lot, in 1964, period, of racial disturbances.

FBI Agent: Of course, I am limiting our relationship to the Muslims, which is the only group you would be able to give an authoritative answer on. The other groups, we will have to get people in the other groups to furnish information.

FBI Agent: (speaking to other agent) Do you have any other questions?

FBI Agent: How was your trip to Florida?


Malcolm X: Fine.


FBI Agent: How do you think Cassius is going to come out? Is he going to win or is he going to lose?

Malcolm X: He can win.


FBI Agent: I’ve seen him fight and I think he is a pretty good fighter, but I think he is going to get it knocked off here, come February.

Malcolm X: He lives a clean life, all those things count.

FBI Agent: Liston does too.

Malcolm X: He might. I don’t know as much about him.

FBI Agent: I don’t know either. He’s sort of a monster to run into.

Malcolm X: Even a monster, Father Time catches up with them.

FBI Agent: Right. It got to be that anybody could beat Joe Louis, but if they had fought him six or seven years earlier, they wouldn’t have had a chance. You going down to the fight?

Malcolm X: I don’t know.


FBI Agent: I was just wondering.


Malcolm X: Florida is an easy place to go to.


FBI Agent: Yes, nobody would have to twist your arm to get you to go. Thank you very much for your time.


Malcolm X: You are welcome.


FBI Agent: (speaking to other agent) You got your folder?


FBI Agent: We can leave that.

Malcolm X: Oh, that’s all right, it would be safe here.

FBI Agent: All right, thank you very much. Thank you again.

Malcolm X: You are welcome.